Tally Ho Pearl Edition from KWP

[CBJ]

Via King's Wind's Facebook.

Jay

[hikeeba]

Be nice if he'd finish the Tacticals first.

[vasta41]

Makes me curious why the black version wasn't called Onyx but nonetheless I'll be pledging for this one like the three before it. I love this series as I have always loved Tally-Hos.

[badpete69]

Makes me curious why the black version wasn't called Onyx but nonetheless I'll be pledging for this one like the three before it. I love this series as I have always loved Tally-Hos.

Tally Hos is one of my favorite so i will be there, although having just sold my last Legacy ( yes they are all gone) I will stick to the regular decks. My wallet will be much happier for it

[Räpylätassu]

Although the KWP Tally-Ho's are extremely nice decks, I do hope that some changes have been made to the design. I am not saying that they should be complete overhauls, but just some small details on the courts for example.

Design wise, they wouldn't have to be made, but it would keep it a bit more fresh.

[Cardians]

January 14th @ 12pm CST - Kickstarter Launch

[Bikefanatic]

This one got to have some type of foil or bling on it.

[vasta41]

A word to the wise- if this deck is offered in an ultra limited edition case made out of actual pearls, DON'T PLEDGE FOR IT. Months later we'll shockingly learn that cases cannot be made out of pearl. Also, if this deck is said to have pieces of pearl embedded right into the playing cards, don't expect that either.

[jerichoholic]

Don't know why he needs Kickstarter any more.

[vasta41]

Don't know why he needs Kickstarter any more.

I couldn't agree more and I've been saying that for years. The only reason I can think that he'd use it is to reach a broad audience; to which I would say, "don't you have enough global presence and a big enough mailing list that you think people can find your cards outside of KS?"
Not to mention these benifits:

• *Saving money of KS/Amazon fees
  *Being able to "work out the kinks" BEFORE a deck is created
  *Figuring out what works and what doesn't work so reprints or delays could happen BEFORE anyone knows about it causing much less backlash and a less-tarnished reputation
  *Creating decks at KWP's own timeline
  *They could even go so far as to jack up prices for very limited releases like some of the other big guys do (I don't like this but who am I kidding- many people, including myself probably, would pay)

It just makes too much sense to me which is why I don't understand

[4.of.Clubs]

Don't know why he needs Kickstarter any more.

I couldn't agree more and I've been saying that for years. The only reason I can think that he'd use it is to reach a broad audience; to which I would say, "don't you have enough global presence and a big enough mailing list that you think people can find your cards outside of KS?"
Not to mention these benifits:

• *Saving money of KS/Amazon fees
  *Being able to "work out the kinks" BEFORE a deck is created
  *Figuring out what works and what doesn't work so reprints or delays could happen BEFORE anyone knows about it causing much less backlash and a less-tarnished reputation
  *Creating decks at KWP's own timeline
  *They could even go so far as to jack up prices for very limited releases like some of the other big guys do (I don't like this but who am I kidding- many people, including myself probably, would pay)

It just makes too much sense to me which is why I don't understand

It's so there's no risk on the creator since they collect $$ up front. You don't like the final product? Deal with it.

[hikeeba]

So, for instance, if you order these and they end up being printed on crepe paper - so be it!
Remember: it's not a flaw, it's a feature!

[Justin O.]

I like Kickstarter, I like the community of it, the excitement that can be generated through a project, the ability to see, get excited for and reach stretch goals as well as contests, limited tiers, consumer input, only having one merchant to have my credit card/paypal on file with, seeing the process, direct communication with the designer etc. Kickstarter has more benefits than downsides in my opinion

[sms69x]

I like Kickstarter, I like the community of it, the excitement that can be generated through a project, the ability to see, get excited for and reach stretch goals as well as contests, limited tiers, consumer input, only having one merchant to have my credit card/paypal on file with, seeing the process, direct communication with the designer etc. Kickstarter has more benefits than downsides in my opinion

Do you remember the last time this happened with a JR project??? (hint ends with 52 and it goes back to more than 3 years).

While what you said can be true for some KS projects the vast majority is only using it because of the zero risk and because creators are too affraid to invest their own money (and why should they invest their own money if they can get it (for free) from people?)...

[4.of.Clubs]

I like Kickstarter, I like the community of it, the excitement that can be generated through a project, the ability to see, get excited for and reach stretch goals as well as contests, limited tiers, consumer input, only having one merchant to have my credit card/paypal on file with, seeing the process, direct communication with the designer etc. Kickstarter has more benefits than downsides in my opinion

This used to be the case, but no longer... at least not for known designers and creators, and that's why I've stopped backing projects on KS and just wait for the after market release.

[jerichoholic]

He's had more then enough backers that he should have a strong customer base. Not to mention plenty retail partners. Perhaps he could have done more to promote his Kings Wild brand and website during his projects?

[Justin O.]

I like Kickstarter, I like the community of it, the excitement that can be generated through a project, the ability to see, get excited for and reach stretch goals as well as contests, limited tiers, consumer input, only having one merchant to have my credit card/paypal on file with, seeing the process, direct communication with the designer etc. Kickstarter has more benefits than downsides in my opinion

This used to be the case, but no longer... at least not for known designers and creators, and that's why I've stopped backing projects on KS and just wait for the after market release.

I dunno, I think Jackson Robinsons recent screw ups has kindof shed a really negative light on the whole thing, but I don't think that should be leveraged against other designers of Kickstarter itself. And self funding has screwed Lotrek and his supporters a number of times without the use of Kickstarter. Heavyweight designers like Uusi and Chris Ovdiyenko and smaller but successful designers like Steve Minty and Albino Dragon still run great, fun, well planned and well executed Kickstarter projects without the issues we are seeing from Jackson, and I still get excited about Kickstarter projects and launches, I'm sad to see it get so much disdain for one creator's mistakes. I'm hoping that with his recent rough patch of production issues and going back on design expectations he will redeem himself with Pearl and show us he can still run a good, clean, issueless project.

[vasta41]

self funding has screwed Lotrek and his supporters a number of times without the use of Kickstarter.

Really? Icons, Grotesk Macabre, Venexiana Dark- all KS projects, all with issues.

I like KS too for all the reasons you mentioned above. But the main reason why I recommend designers like Jackson and Lotrek to not use KS is because they keep trying to push the limit of custom playing cards and constantly run into problems doing so. If they weren't on KS then they could choose when the world can see their projects, preferably after they're done. That way they can take all the time in world to design decks, experiment, line up distributors, etc. and we would be none the wiser.

If Jackson could go back in time and take back what he said about adding a foil strip after he knew it wasn't possible, don't you think he would?
When Lotrek printed Liturgy on that rare stock and found out it was misaligned, don't you think he wished he never told anyone about it in the first place?

Those are just two examples as to why ignorance is bliss- not just for the consumer but for deck creators as well. Sure it's great to hear about artists trying out cool, new, awesome things. But would you rather hear about every experiment and get your hopes up or only hear about the select experiments that paid off and are ready to be delivered?

[Justin O.]

If they weren't on KS then they could choose when the world can see their projects, preferably after they're done. That way they can take all the time in world to design decks, experiment, line up distributors, etc. and we would be none the wiser.

But Lotrek is making all of the same mistakes and isn't using Kickstarter to do it, Kickstarter isn't the problem. Lotrek continues to sell his decks before production and has nothing but delays and issues, reprints, false expectations, feature promises he goes back on, mistake after mistake and all of it without Kickstarter. I don't have any excuses for Jackson.

I agree that you shouldn't sell something until you have it in hand to sell in a situation where you are trying something new or experimental, but Kickstarter doesn't allow this to happen, it can happen regardless as Lotrek has proven multiple times. And we as consumers are partially responsible for continuing to fund these experiments up front knowing that issues like this happen repeatedly.

I agree with you guys for the most part, but I generally prefer Kickstarter than just buying a deck off a webstore

[vasta41]

I agree that you shouldn't sell something until you have it in hand to sell in a situation where you are trying something new or experimental, but Kickstarter doesn't allow this to happen

Exactly- so my point is when Lotrek or Jackson try something new or experimental, they shouldn't use KS. For the record, as a consumer I too prefer KS and I wish Jackson didn't run into as many issues as he did so I would be more confident at the end result. But I think I speak for everyone here when I say that our trust in getting exactly what Jackson advertises is more than a bit shaken. This is only due to the fact that we knew he was trying stuff before he knew he could actually do the stuff he was trying.

[4.of.Clubs]

I agree with you guys for the most part, but I generally prefer Kickstarter than just buying a deck off a webstore

This is what I thought a year ago, but I've also been burnt many times where the decks is on sale after KS for a cheaper price (that's a whole other topic).

I agree KS is still a good ground for creators and backers to discuss and contribute to the project, but for the known creators, I personally can't recall recently where they changed their design based of what KS backers have said (Jackson did take a couple notes from UC on the legal tender). Nowadays, what they put on the product page is usually what you're getting. The only projects I back on KS now is if it's a limited deck I want that I know will cost more after release.

For creators like Jackson and Lotrek, we're not buying $10-$15 decks anymore, most of the decks are now $25+ (or much higher). Why are we paying such a premium? because we trust that the decks will be as designed, with the features promised... and with that trust and $$$ from backers, I would expect them to deliver.

[double_left]

Nowadays, what they put on the product page is usually what you're getting.

Wrong!! Black Diamond - Tactical edition is a prime example! From Bullet proof titanium to now, a wood display!

Why are we paying such a premium? because we trust that the decks will be as designed, with the features promised...

Wrong!!
Texas - The color of the Texas deck changed without notice.
Black Diamond - Legacy boxes design changed without notice.

I would expect them to deliver.

Lately with JR projects, all I can say is.....

[4.of.Clubs]

Nowadays, what they put on the product page is usually what you're getting.

Wrong!! Black Diamond - Tactical edition is a prime example! From Bullet proof titanium to now, a wood display!

Why are we paying such a premium? because we trust that the decks will be as designed, with the features promised...

Wrong!!
Texas - The color of the Texas deck changed without notice.
Black Diamond - Legacy boxes design changed without notice.

Not sure what point you are trying to make, in regards to the first quote, I was talking about designs/colors. Where creators used to change the tuck/back/pips with backer feedback - this doesn't happen anymore for known creators.

Second, if you read the whole post, I'm saying that's what I EXPECT but AM NOT GETTING - that's why I don't pledge on KS anymore.

Please read the whole post and not pick sentences out of context and quote people...

[Lotrek]

I think we're a bit off topic but the discussion is interesting anyway and I was mentioned, so let me add my thoughts.

KS is primarily a site where you can get the funds you need to do something new. Doing something new means that there is a possibility of a mistake (or more). Unless you plan to screw your backers and run away with their money, mistakes and delays are in the program.
Ideally, I agree that experiments should be held in the shadow and only the successful ones should be announced and sold.
But: During the past 2 years I have acquired a huge amount of knowledge regarding offset printing and what I can say is that what you imagine or envision is far from the reality. You cannot experiment with printing unless your dad is running a big printing company. And you cannot "print a few sheets", simply because you pay the same money whether you're printing 10 sheets or 1000. And sometimes unexpected things can happen even when you're not experimenting and you're just doing an ordinary printing.

I think that a creative mind cannot be imprisoned within the limits of ordinary decks. I cannot stop myself from inventing but really, I wish I could. It's very stressful and financially exhausting but I guess it's a sort of addiction. Some people are addicted to collecting, others are addicted to getting in trouble with their innovations
However, I have taken some steps in creating in a more safe manner, both for my backers and for me. LITURGY Treasure is an example. It was prepared long ago, quietly executed with the knowledge I acquired over time, ALWAYS with fingers crossed and thankfully without problems, apart from the hard personal work.
Personally I like learning from my mistakes and not repeating them too much (I can always go for new ones!!).
I'm soon to announce big changes in all aspects of my playing card designing/producing that will be for the better, both for my backers and for me.
I begin with arresting Victor Jose

KS as a platform has nothing to do with how projects are executed and if there was no KS at all, there would have been no such diversity in playing card design. One has to decide if they'll fund a project that will probably be delayed -sometimes considerably- or wait when the deck is available later at a higher price. In some creators' cases usually double or triple.

[vasta41]

@Lotrek Mistakes and delays are one thing- and like you said, should be expected IMO. But offering one thing and selling another is a totally different story which is something Jackson has done more than once now:
CRAZY 8s
What was offered: embossing on LTD tuck case
What was sold: NO embossing on LTD tuck case (in fairness an extra autographed deck was included for free)

TEXAS
What was offered: a black on blue color scheme on the back of the cards
What was sold: a black on very dark grey, almost black color scheme

TALLY-HO BLACK DIAMOND
What was offered: metal tuck case
What (will be) sold: wooden tuck case

LEGAL TENDER
What was offered: holographic strip on court cards
What (will be) sold: no holographic strips

Those examples don't include the mistakes that were made in these and other projects (again, mistakes happen) but rather false advertisement, more or less. I will be backing the Pearl edition here because I think it and all of Jackson's other work is beautiful. My only point here is like I said in an earlier post: BUYER BEWARE. Careful getting your hopes up for ground breaking add-ons or features based on past experience.

[ccralleo]

I know recently it has been hard with Jacksons projects. I am disappointed that it may no longer be a metal tuck in regards to the Tactical Edition. But we don't know the whole story with UGT and why they backed out. It sucks that what was purchased was not set in stone and for many months a select few of us have been in the dark on this... but I never count my chickens before they hatch... I'm looking forward to, hopefully, a different kind of legacy than previously seen in other projects. But either way I am grateful, as a collector, to have his decks in my collection. It's nice to see how far he has come and what is possible these days... maybe no holographic strips this time but new knowledge gained for stunning decks in the future! I'm looking forward to the Pearl Tally Ho's and hopefully it will go smoothly and restore some faith in Jackson. I'm rooting for him!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[th4mo]

KS is primarily a site where you can get the funds you need to do something new. Doing something new means that there is a possibility of a mistake (or more). Unless you plan to screw your backers and run away with their money, mistakes and delays are in the program.

I don't wanna rehash much of what has been said already in this thread, but I think Lotrek hits the nail on the head here.

Kickstarter is NOT a store.

Not getting exactly what you thought you were going to get is only ONE of the risks that you must accept as part of the package.

Don't like that? The very simple answer has already been offered many times: wait until the item is available on the regular market, and pay market prices. No one is forcing you to back anything on KS.

That said, Jackson's record speaks for itself - for better or worse - and no one who reads this forum can claim ignorance of the risks.

As for myself, i've lost the desire to pay a premium for nothing more than a fancy box, and the whole KWP Tally Ho line is starting to get a bit boring...

[Bikefanatic]

From KS, I'll only just get the cards, none of the cool looking extra stuff unless it's already made. Usually cases are the problem, still waiting on one of them.

[guru]

I second what Lotrek said above. Due to Kickstarter there is a renewed interest in custom playing cards and I know lots of people who started collecting after Federal 52. I read here that people are disappointed because things have not gone well with recent projects by JR. Has someone thought about the kind of disappointment JR would have faced after getting to know that his vision for such a design may not be realized because of such and such challenges. How much emotional toll he would have endured when making certain tradeoffs and decisions? Same would have been the case with Lotrek. I've been through similar emotional ups and downs with Divine Art project though it may not be on the similar lines as in the projects I mentioned above because of no. of backers, multiple reward levels etc.

This should not be seen as a plea or an excuse but just another viewpoint from a creator's perspective. In the end, it is all learning, every creator learns something from the project execution, similarly every backer goes on the journey with creator and have their fair share of lessons learned. Are they able to apply their learnings on future projects and to what extent is the question both parties should be asking themselves regularly.

[jerichoholic]

Jackson, and all creators, should make sure their visions are possible before launching them.