THUNDERDOME!!

[Eoghann]

Alright gentlemen. Choose your weapons.

Sinjin and Jackson, get in the ring.

[badpete69]

My money is on Jackson.... And literally in Jackson's hand hehehehehe

[JacksonRobinson]

Sounds good. I actually dont mind Sinjin. While his hatred towards me is a little broken recordish at times he usually has pretty well put together thoughts and comments.

Speaking of Thunderdome, who else cant wait for the new mad max. Maybe i should do a mad max deck hmmmm.

Lets take it one topic at a time. That way i can give meaningful concise answers to and noone has to sit here and read a graduate thesis in response to todays weather.

[sinjin7]

Let's begin with a bit of levity, shall we?

JR: Hey UC, to make up for my non-functional, un-playable Moriarty deck, I'll make it up to you somehow. I know, I'll print another v.2 deck (you know, so you can shovel more money my way). To help ease the sting, I'll never ever sell the v.1 deck (you know, because its non-functional and un-playable) except this one time (you know, so you can shovel more money my way) and hand sign each deck and put a special seal on it (you know, so I can dump this excess stock that won't sell anyways).

UC: Uh, where's your signature, JR? And what's with this crappy sticker?

JR: I never promised to hand sign the decks to anyone...else (you know, except you guys here at UC). I decided to change directions (you know, without telling you guys) and not sign any. Sorry. I'll make it up to you somehow. I know, everyone who wasn't promised a signed deck won't get one, and everyone who was promised a signed deck (you know, only you guys here at UC) won't get one as well (you know, 'cause I have to treat everyone equally). Holy Buddha, I'm really trying to figure out how to respond to you guys. How dare you bitch at me!

A few weeks pass

JR: Hey UC, I'm selling the KW Tally Ho's (you know, so you can shovel more money my way) on my shiny new pre-ordering site (you know, the one dressed up as crowd-funding). Now I never called this a staple deck. Huh? What? Oh, I did call it a staple deck here at UC? Thanks for pointing that out, Strag. OK, well, I'm super excited to be able to bring you guys a fully custom deck at a lower price point of $8 (you know, plus $4 shipping). I'm using my very own fulfillment company for shipping and this is my very own crowd-funding site (you know, so that if there's any money being shoveled, its all coming my way). And these are unlimited, so anyone who wants one can get one (you know, so you can shovel more money my way). Am I not a swell guy for bringing you a cheaper fully custom deck?

UC: Wow, a fully custom deck from JR for $8! Gee whiz, JR is such a swell guy. I'm gonna start shoveling money JR's way and put my pre-order in for....waaait a minute! All of JR's fully custom, limited decks with totally blinged up tuck boxes were $12 shipped. These fully custom, non-limited KW Tallys are...$12 shipped. And from the pictures on your pre-sale site, the tuck boxes don't even look that blinged up. And you're not releasing the red version (c'mon, we all know its coming) at the same time so we have to pay your very own shipping and fulfillment company even more money. And after this pre-sale is over, you're going to charge even more money for this unlimited, staple deck? Say it ain't so, JR! Can you give us an explanation why this $12 unlimited deck is cheaper than your $12 limited decks on Kickstarter?!?

JR: ***crickets chirping***

Obviously the above is meant to be satire.

[sinjin7]

OK, let's get serious, now. I want to start off by saying I don't hate Jackson at all. I've always acknowledged his talent and bought every deck he's produced up through his "staple" deck, the KW Tallys. While I wasn't a fanboy like some people here, I was a fan. This is why it was all the more disappointing to me to see Jackson "changing directions" and (in my opinion) treating his fanbase here at UC so poorly with his churlish and sometimes arrogant attitude when we dared question some of his actions and business practices.

I've got a few issues I'd like to discuss, but I'm going to cut right to the chase and start off with the most egregious one first directly to Jackson. In what universe is a $12.00 shipped KW Tally deck (now $16.00) less expensive than any of your previous $12.00 KS decks? You came here to UC touting that you were so pleased with yourself in being able to bring to us a fully custom deck that's better priced than your previous decks, almost like you're doing us this huge favor. Then it turns out your allegedly economically priced deck is not one red cent cheaper than any of your previous decks (that weren't limited editions). At least on KS, we had the opportunity for Early Birds and price breaks in volume. Now, this same KW Tally deck is $16.00 per deck shipped.

You also claimed this would be a "staple" deck (a claim you later tried to back out of) and printed in unlimited quantities. If this is the case, your cost to produce the KW Tally is LESS because all the start up costs (design, printing plates, etc..) are over with when you have future printing runs, yet you're making this deck even MORE expensive now and in the future. You're no longer paying KS or Amazon fees, you're making money both in the front end on the decks themselves, and on the back end through fulfillment as well. Please pardon us for feeling all of this is a little cash grabby.

But please don't make this an issue of you being able to charge whatever the hell you want for your decks. Obviously, that is your right, just as it is our right not to buy those decks. What this is really about is the false claim of your KW Tallys being a more economical deck, when it clearly is not, and this somehow being a staple deck, which it also clearly is not. Is it so hard for you to comprehend that we would feel a bit mislead and grumpy after all of this? All we expect is for you to say what you mean and mean what you say. I'm not sure this happened in regards to your ill-conceived marketing of the KW Tallys.

[JacksonRobinson]

Here is the actual shipping matrix that I used for the Tally Ho Project. You are an educated person, you will see that in fact they were cheaper than every other KS deck I have produced. You just saw the intial sticker price and that shipping was added after words, and immediate got your torch and pitchfork.

You accusations that they were priced no different than my other KS decks is both false, and assumptive.

http://www.jacksonbrobinson.com/tallyho ... atrix.xlsx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Designing, Producing and shipping playing cards is my profession. To be surprised that I would I would come out with a new deck and immediately label it as a money grab is childish. I know you are a lawyer. When you wake up in the morning and realize your mortgage is due or that you kids need braces do you say to yourself, "Self, I'm going to go build a house to pay for all of this." NO you get up and go to you J O B! Designing cards is my J O B. When you get to work do your colleagues berate you for showing up and getting paid? NO. You accuse me of making money on the front, and the back end of my projects. Your absolutely right. You don't go to work and only get paid for the work you do before lunch do you?

Also look at the shipping prices I charge and you will realize that I don't make anything off of shipping. Compare my prices to any other project and you will see that they are fair and reasonable. I even go above and beyond with my materials cost as I think cheap "free" USPS flat rate boxes are the absolute worst thing you could send decks in. From the time I started doing my own fulfillment I have sent out over 4500 orders and in those 4500 orders I have had 3....... THREE damaged orders.

[JacksonRobinson]

Side Note:

Your "Cricket" speech was awesome! More people should model remarks after this one. It was sarcastic and funny. I was actually flattered that you took that much of your time write to me.

[ecNate]

I suppose I could be considered a JR 'fanboy', but there have been some valid points brought up. Also, when you state that collectors only make up 10% (or whatever) of your sales and then stop posting on UC, I'm sure you can see how many would take that to mean they don't matter and then take greater offence at changes in direction, pricing, etc. Forgetting about the people that helped get you where you are can be a fatal mistake, especially if the tides turn and those initial supports may be the ones to get you through lean times.

I'm just glad you are back and are a big boy about taking licks. Hopefully this thread will clear the air and we can start getting inside information again here without having to go to various other blogs, facebook pages, other forums, etc. Although, I think we all should realize just how busy you are now and that is likely what explains the previous absence and we shouldn't expect too much in the future.

[sinjin7]

Again, Jackson, I said this wasn't about your right to make a buck, so let's not waste any time in that discussion. This is also not about how great you pack your decks when shipping. I want to keep the focus on the first issue I brought up.

Thank you for posting your shipping matrix, now I know that 8+4=12. I didn't see anywhere what your shipping matrices were for Fed52, Parts 1&2, Sherlock Holmes, and Independence. Everyone here is smart enough to know a $12 deck on KS with "free" domestic shipping just means its a deck priced with shipping already factored in. Plus, you own your own fulfillment, so you can cook the books anyway you want and show whatever numbers (within reason) you want for what actual shipping & "handling" costs you. You could just as easily have said this was a $7.00 deck plus $5.00 shipping and "handling", or a $9.00 deck with $3.00 shipping and "handling".

The most accurate index for ascertaining the actual total cost of the deck would be what it costs to get a deck shipped to us. This way there are no games played with fudging however much you want to attribute to shipping and "handling". There is no difference to us to have a deck offered for $8.00 when we MUST pay another $4.00 to actually get the deck versus getting a deck offered to us for $12.00, but we don't have to pay any shipping. Its disingenuous for you to claim the KW Tally's are $8.00 and therefore cheaper than your $12.00 KS decks and all of us here at UC saw through that right away. At the end of the day, $12.00 is $12.00, and that's what the KW Tally cost per deck shipped, no different than any of your KS decks.

All of this is a moot point anyways, because your KW Tally decks are now $16.00 shipped, definitely not a more cost effective deck for us. Maybe I need to print up a matrix or table that illustrates the fact that 12+4=16 > 12.

[CBJ]

Hey UC, I'm selling the KW Tally Ho's (you know, so you can shovel more money my way) on my shiny new pre-ordering site (you know, the one dressed up as crowd-funding).

Let's be honest.... most KS deck campaigns are just pre-orders. Plain and simple. 4pm Designs, Albino Dragon, Gamblers Warehouse, PlayingCardsDotNet, and even the $100 deck recently... all pre-orders. Most times these decks are already deep into production.



Now back to the THUNDERDOME.....

[JacksonRobinson]

Again, Jackson, I said this wasn't about your right to make a buck, so let's not waste any time in that discussion. This is also not about how great you pack your decks when shipping. I want to keep the focus on the first issue I brought up.

Thank you for posting your shipping matrix, now I know that 8+4=12. I didn't see anywhere what your shipping matrices were for Fed52, Parts 1&2, Sherlock Holmes, and Independence. Everyone here is smart enough to know a $12 deck on KS with "free" domestic shipping just means its a deck priced with shipping already factored in. Plus, you own your own fulfillment, so you can cook the books anyway you want and show whatever numbers (within reason) you want for what actual shipping & "handling" costs you. You could just as easily have said this was a $7.00 deck plus $5.00 shipping and "handling", or a $9.00 deck with $3.00 shipping and "handling".

The most accurate index for ascertaining the actual total cost of the deck would be what it costs to get a deck shipped to us. This way there are no games played with fudging however much you want to attribute to shipping and "handling". There is no difference to us to have a deck offered for $8.00 when we MUST pay another $4.00 to actually get the deck versus getting a deck offered to us for $12.00, but we don't have to pay any shipping. Its disingenuous for you to claim the KW Tally's are $8.00 and therefore cheaper than your $12.00 KS decks and all of us here at UC saw through that right away. At the end of the day, $12.00 is $12.00, and that's what the KW Tally cost per deck shipped, no different than any of your KS decks.

All of this is a moot point anyways, because your KW Tally decks are now $16.00 shipped, definitely not a more cost effective deck for us. Maybe I need to print up a matrix or table that illustrates the fact that 12+4=16 > 12.

I honestly don't know how to explain it differently than what I did and showing you my shipping costs.

On kickstarter 1 deck is $12, every deck after that is $12 no matter how many you pledge for.
On KWF 1 deck is $12, but 12 decks come out to be $8.50 per deck shipped to your door.

How is the same as Kickstarter? Shipping prices weather fudged or not will always be a part of the price of the deck.

[sinjin7]

I don't want to get into a line comparison for how much 1 deck, 2 decks, 3 decks, etc.. between the KW Tally versus all your other KS decks. You offered volume price breaks on KS as well, by the way, so it wasn't $12 for every additional deck. You're looking at it from a multiple deck order point of view, but not all people are going to order a brick of your decks every time. Many people only order one deck.

And while we're talking about the KW Tally, let's make sure we're actually comparing apples to apples. From the pictures you posted of the KW Tally deck, I can't tell if there is any embossing, foiling, or printing on the interior of the tuck box. Will the KW Tally tuck box be blinged up like all your other KS decks were? Maybe you can clarify that point to make sure we're even discussing comparable decks.

And to close off the issue of the pricing of the KW Tally, why is it even more expensive after the initial offering when we all know that the cost to produce the same deck gets LESS expensive in future print runs? A staple deck usually signifies a deck with an indefinite, unlimited print run that is priced lower due to quantity and meant to be a user deck. In what way is this a staple deck?

[JacksonRobinson]

I don't want to get into a line comparison for how much 1 deck, 2 decks, 3 decks, etc.. between the KW Tally versus all your other KS decks. You offered volume price breaks on KS as well, by the way, so it wasn't $12 for every additional deck. You're looking at it from a multiple deck order point of view, but not all people are going to order a brick of your decks every time. Many people only order one deck.

And while we're talking about the KW Tally, let's make sure we're actually comparing apples to apples. From the pictures you posted of the KW Tally deck, I can't tell if there is any embossing, foiling, or printing on the interior of the tuck box. Will the KW Tally tuck box be blinged up like all your other KS decks were? Maybe you can clarify that point to make sure we're even discussing comparable decks.

And to close off the issue of the pricing of the KW Tally, why is it even more expensive after the initial offering when we all know that the cost to produce the same deck gets LESS expensive in future print runs? A staple deck usually signifies a deck with an indefinite, unlimited print run that is priced lower due to quantity and meant to be a user deck. In what way is this a staple deck?

The reason it is more expensive afterwards is simple, to reward those who back and help fund the initial offering. The price change was a fact that was clearly stated on the project page and also during checkout. Definitions of "Staple" decks will be different for everyone. In my case I wanted to produce a deck that people could afford to buy in bigger quantities. This was successful as I had more buyers purchase gross orders.

There is no such thing as an unlimited print run. The production cost of a deck only goes down per specific order depending on quantity. There are no price breaks for reprints as USPCC treats every run as a "new run" It is a common misconception that "plate fees and art fees" are waved and that those cost don't exist any more on subsequent print runs. That couldn't be further from the truth. Every time you do a print run USPCC makes new printing plates as the plates are literally destroyed an made unusable when they take them off the presses. USPCC doesn't have this huge vault of printing plates in the back that they go to and pull out plates for a repeated print run.

[sinjin7]

So let me get this straight - The KW Tally's are only going to be a more economically priced fully custom deck from you if: A) you only buy them at their initial offering on KWF and B) if you buy them in bulk, then C) they won't be cheaper anymore in the future and finally D) you call it a staple, I call it a staple, po-tay-to, po-tah-to?

Again, you were the one who came here trumpeting a bargain priced fully custom deck, and forgive me if the convoluted reality failed to live up to the hype.

As for the printing costs from USPCC, you're telling me there is absolutely no price break in printing in aggregate quantity, and that you have to do the art and plates completely from scratch for a deck that will have an indefinite print run? You know full well you'll be printing more of these in the future, yet you can't have the USPCC combine the labor, parts, and costs for another print run that is sure to come in the future? That doesn't seem logical or efficient, but hey, I'm just a lawyer. Designing, producing, shipping playing cards is your profession, as you so emphatically stated in an earlier post, so I'll defer to your statement about multiple print runs from the USPCC for now, or at least until someone else that's also in the profession of designing, producing, and shipping playing cards can chime in to confirm or refute.

You still haven't answered the question about the tuck box of the KW Tally. Will they be embossed, foiled, and printed on the interior just like your other KS tuck boxes?

[JacksonRobinson]

Once again any specific finishing options were posted on the project page. Just like the prices.

[sinjin7]

You still haven't answered the question about the tuck box of the KW Tally. Will they be embossed, foiled, and printed on the interior just like your other KS tuck boxes?

Once again any specific finishing options were posted on the project page. Just like the prices.

Wow. Really? Is it that difficult for you to just simply answer my question? I don't know, this seems kind of like a snarky attitude, but maybe its just me. Pardon me for not being a frequenter of any of your sites and not being familiar with your project page. No biggie, I went and took a look and got my answer. You could've answered with a simple "No."

Most of us know that one of the biggest expenses related to a deck of cards is how fancy the tuck box is. So according to your project page you made me look up, there is no embossing, no foil, and no printing on the interior of the KW Tally tucks. These decks really can't be compared to your KS decks then. They are both cheaper in price as well as quality in terms of the tucks.

Based upon the standards you set for yourself on KS, and the fact that you called these KW Tallys "fully custom" and the "highest quality playing cards available", we had our elevated expectation of getting a typically blinged up deck from you at a bargain price dashed by the reality of us actually getting a cheaper priced deck because its cheaper in quality, therefore not the generous bargain we hoped it would be. I think this pretty much sums up what happened here. And now you're going to sell the KW Tallys with regular, non-blinged up tucks for $16.00 for one deck shipped? This is not a staple deck by anyone's definition, and not a particularly economical deck, either.

[JacksonRobinson]

Wow. Really? You get your feelings hurt by snarky? I haven't even pinned my own cricket speech yet.

The only upgrade to the tuck case I did was the paper stock. I really dislike the base uspc glossy stock and upgraded it to premium matte stock. (The same as all of the Feds) It may not seem like much but added almost a $1.20 per deck.

We can go around on price until and what and the cost of this and the cost of that. But in the end it boils down to this point.

You were expecting a much lower price and didn't get one. The important thing that I wish more people would learn from you is this. If you don't like something you don't buy it.

So. Do we continue on this or proceed to the next topic?

[sinjin7]

Wow. Really? You get your feelings hurt by snarky? I haven't even pinned my own cricket speech yet.

Nah. In my profession I deal with people that make you look like a choir boy. But snarky isn't professional. Snarky doesn't exactly endear you to the crowd here at UC, especially when you're trying to rebuild bridges. Snarky isn't something we would expect from someone who aspires to be the leader of the custom playing card industry. More on that below. So you're planning to pen your own cricket speech? How nice, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. You're a funny guy, so I'm looking forward to it.

But in the end it boils down to this point.

You were expecting a much lower price and didn't get one.

I think this statement is only semi-correct and misses the main point. You keep on making this all about the pricing only. The pricing is what may have started all of this off, but it's only obliquely related to our ultimate dissatisfaction with you. I wanted to evolve this discussion from the price point to what is the main point. None of us begrudge you for trying to make a buck, we all do it too in our work lives, whatever our professions may be. Most of us want you to be very successful because you're good at what you do. Sure, we got pumped up because you came here and hyped one thing, and when it wasn't what we thought it would be, its only natural that some amount of disappointment would follow, but that's equally on us as it is on you. What got us pissed at you was your dismissive and arrogant attitude when some of us dared to post our displeasure of this non-bargain priced, non-staple deck. Maybe you're just used to forums where people only fawn all over you and only sing praises. Maybe you got caught off guard by the bluntness and yes, even some rudeness, here at UC and you lashed out. You're only human, you have feelings too, I get that. But your are also the personification of your company. I want to make this point very clearly: Your reputation in the eyes of UC didn't fall because you priced a single KW Tally deck at $12.00 shipped. It fell because - dare I say it? - your snarky attitude.

[JacksonRobinson]

Understood…

I will attempt to say this next remark in the most sincere and UNprovoking way possible. As an individual and a budding artist trying to break into the world of playing cards coming to communities like the UC is helpful and useful. However as an individual transforms into a business, like you have made clear about myself, it becomes less and less of a fruitful process, as the dialogue evolves from constructive criticism to being repetitive noise.

Does this mean I don't want to be hear, does this mean Im going to cast you off because you may make up only 10% of my market? No. It just means my time as someone who is trying to make his business work is better spent else where as most of the time the discussion lead nowhere with no fruitful out come.

This is the same reason why companies like T11, E, and D&D once attended here and no longer do. Am comparing myself to those business no, but it is a reality this community needs to realize.

I mean this in all honesty and with as little snakiness as I can put into text written online.

[sinjin7]

This is the same reason why companies like T11, E, and D&D once attended here and no longer do. Am comparing myself to those business no, but it is a reality this community needs to realize.

I mean this in all honesty and with as little snakiness as I can put into text written online.

Thank you for your snark-free response, I truly do appreciate it. You may not be as big as E, T11, or D&D, but that's because you're not a magic-based company. Strictly in terms of custom playing cards only, you've exceeded all those companies with the quality of product you put out as far as I'm concerned, and I think many others here at UC feel the same way.

Having said that, I will have to disagree with your statement quoted above. I'm not a member of any other playing card forum, but from my brief visits to those other forums, it doesn't seem like E, T11, or D&D ever had much presence in those forums, either. Certainly the Buck twins are absent from all places not related to anything D&D. And while representatives from E or T11 or Blue Crown don't post comments nearly as often as they used to, they still come and watch and keep tabs on what goes on here, especially when they're launching a new product.

I've had discussions with people from E, T11, and Lee Asher via PM or email. What has happened is that UC has transformed from a Cardistry and Magic centric forum into mostly a card collecting forum, so we've shifted slightly outside of their target demographic. From these discussions, I've gathered that their primary targets are, to put it bluntly, early teen to late teen males who think its cool to do magic and think of it as a means to impress chicks, so their marketing style (hype in overdrive) reflects that. Their secondary targets are working magicians. Sure, E, T11 etc.. get tired of our harping and bashing of their marketing or products, but they have realized that the custom playing card branch of their companies are very profitable. Therefore, a forum of mostly card collectors like UC is still important to them, and while they may not be as vocal on our boards, they still observe and listen because it makes financial sense for them to do so. And I've seen changes in their conduct and marketing to be convinced this is true.

So I wouldn't be so quick to conclude that forums like UC are helpful to individuals, but less fruitful for businesses. Whether something is constructive criticism or just "repetitive noise", its up to you to decide which is which because both will be present. No matter where you go, there will always be the good with the bad, no place is perfect. You just have to glean what's useful from what's not, even if it may be something you don't want to hear or hurts your feelings sometimes. And even if there is a lot of "repetitive noise", there's usually some root cause that generates that noise and it may be helpful to at least understand what that root cause is, even if you don't necessarily agree with it.

[montecarlojoe]

In my mind's eye I see you both in the Thunderdome... sitting down to a nice afternoon tea for a chat. Tina Turner looks very disapponted.

I think this is turning out to be one of the most constructive topics on the forum - and certainly the go-to topic as an example of how to talk out your differences.

Much appreciated guys - carry on!

[Eoghann]

I say, jolly good show!

[JacksonRobinson]

Just wanted to let you know I was still here.

[Eoghann]

Sup J-Bro.

[sprouts1115]

Just wanted to let you know I was still here.

@Jackson - That is great, but you never responded back to sinjin7.

Where are these ppl who you all call Fan-Boys I can't find them?

[montecarlojoe]

I honestly think they got to the point where each understood the other's viewpoint and had exhaustively expressed their own...

[Eoghann]

That's what it looks like.

Any other challengers?

[Marcus]

I'm feeling frisky. Not sure who to call out over what though. Perhaps I should just sit back down again.

[MagikFingerz]

I'm feeling frisky. Not sure who to call out over what though. Perhaps I should just sit back down again.

Norwegians are better than Swedes.

...what?

[Marcus]