THUNDERDOME: On the topic of Pride / Rainbow branded products

[STLBluesNut]

well, smurf T11

.. for their latest go woke deck and deleting comments on their insta. t11 officially on the no buy shit list. you want to make some political statement pandering deck then silence those that disagree. go smurf yourselves.

[GandalfPC]

Frankly I don’t see a Pride deck from an artist and the Whitney museum to be out of line, nor do I think they should have to tolerate people who want to complain about it on their companies instagram. There is a whole internet to complain about such things if you desire to.

I am not going to try to get into their heads to determine if they are promoting things they believe in, or if they are pandering - there are certainly plenty of other things for them to make profit from that don’t bring about controversy though, so one imagines they have at least made a determination of which side they stand on and are willing to associate that with their business - so you may decide for yourself if you wish to support them after that (and I am sure they expect that)

[Strag]

Well said Gandalf!

[STLBluesNut]

Frankly I don’t see a Pride deck from an artist and the Whitney museum to be out of line, nor do I think they should have to tolerate people who want to complain about it on their companies instagram. There is a whole internet to complain about such things if you desire to.

I am not going to try to get into their heads to determine if they are promoting things they believe in, or if they are pandering - there are certainly plenty of other things for them to make profit from that don’t bring about controversy though, so one imagines they have at least made a determination of which side they stand on and are willing to associate that with their business - so you may decide for yourself if you wish to support them after that (and I am sure they expect that)

i agree they can do whatever they like. i didnt call the deck out of line, there is plenty of pride shit out there to go around. it is all the rage these days. i hope they underestimate how many people are tired of this shit and underestimated how much it hits their bottom line. it wont be enough for them to do or say anything about it i am sure but i hope they feel it.

[GandalfPC]

I hope the opposite.

[Sir Toddalot]

I also don’t have anything against Theory 11 for making the deck, they can do what they want. However based on the one instagram post I saw it does look like it’s just a recolor of the old decks, which does make it seem more like a quick cash grab than a real effort. I also don’t really understand the point of boycotting them for doing one thing I don’t like. I really doubt I’m going to affect their bottom line, and all I’m doing is making myself upset and depriving myself of quality products. If I boycotted a company everytime they did something I don’t like I wouldn’t be able to buy anything. We live in a world with millions of different views, deal with it.

[STLBluesNut]

i just happen to believe in voting with my wallet. you could make the same argument for voting. your one vote against millions. even if the person you want gets elected are they going to do what you voted for? do you still vote? i hope so. sure, i am only one person but it all adds up. i bet TGW would love to have the people on board that have cancelled from his campaign or didnt buy because of the price or structure. we were all still only one person not buying. take a look at disney stock prices over the last year. hasn't been going too well for them since they decided to double down on their woke ideology. i guess it hasnt been just me not patronizing them (star wars, marvel, disney). what about netflix falling after raising prices and putting in anti password sharing measures then talking about adding ads? most companies/people don't make make lots of money selling expensive products to select rich people, they sell lots inexpensive products to LOTS of people. so, T11 isnt going to miss my $10. even my $10 from their latest marvel and star wars decks. not even my $10 from their next 20 decks. they might miss the next 20 decks' $10 from a few hundred people though. everyone is free to do what they like, i like taking a stand in the ways that i am able. i hope they feel it but i am not doing it to hurt them. i am doing it because it's the right thing to do. for me. so i am dealing with it, by not supporting their business.

if one thinks all this push from the alphabet people the last couple of years isn't a significant part of what is going to influence the big D fall in november, which even the lib news cannot deny any longer, one should wake up and read the room.

you want to support that social cause? go for it. you want to support a company that quiets people that don't agree with them? have at it. you are right, one soldier never won a war but the army is big and growing.

[GandalfPC]

A company that finds more value in supporting a cause than in the almighty dollar is a company I can respect. The cause is also one I can respect.

Politics I will leave out of the discussion, as I hardly have time for another rabbit hole.

[STLBluesNut]

well, i guess t11 and i are alike in that respect, stand for what you believe in how you can. regardless of what others think.

[Timmargh]

I'm confused. Theory11 producing a Pride themed deck makes them bad?

And what comments were deleted?

[GandalfPC]

I did contact Theory 11 in regards to the “cash grab” comment - I had figured it was in no way a cash grab, and knew that Shantell’s cards were very appropriate, but wanted to get all the facts before replying to it here - so here is what T11 said:

“Hey Gandalf! Happy to answer the question here. Proceeds from this deck benefit The Trevor Project and the ACLU to support and defend individual rights and crisis support services to LGBTQ youth, as these were hand selected by Shantell herself for this new edition. There's also not only rainbow foil on the card box that looks absolutely beautiful in the light, but the card backs themselves are also printed with a stellar holographic foil that color shifts depending on the angle. That's all we can say for now, but we're excited to release this new edition with Shantell directly. Have a wonderful week!”

[CourtCurator]

There is a big difference between silencing dissent and refusing to listen to hate.

[Harvonsgard]

Isn't it overreaction Monday? Not Tuesday?

Just for me to understand, @STL, you're boycotting every company that does something for pride month? Or is there a difference if it doesn't feel like pandering?
Seems like a strange hill to die on but you do you.

I'd rather have people boycott producers that say holographic foil instead of diffraction foil... urgh! Kidding... or am I?
Anyways, they do diffraction foiled backs? And TXI always used USPCC right? So USPCC updated their foil technique? Or TXI switched to another printer for this deck? Or is ot simply a Metalluxe back design?

Edit: I just checked the deck in question and it'll most likely be Metalluxe only since the back design of the original deck was black/white line art.

[brownsl]

I am 56 years old tomorrow and the level of hate in this country is very saddening. I just don't understand why people can't accept there are others out there that are not like them but they also have the right to exist. Though it seems some wish they did not exist. I hope history is not repeating itself. I worry where this country is headed with all the hatred that is being stoked by some. Sad times.

Mods I know this is not an appropriate post for this forum so feel free to delete.

[CourtCurator]

Calling a spade a spade is not just appropriate, it is required.

[EvilDuncan]

woke ideology

alphabet people

lib news

You'll forgive me if I don't take anything you say seriously when you write garbage like this. Take your hate somewhere else please.

[STLBluesNut]

I'm confused. Theory11 producing a Pride themed deck makes them bad?

And what comments were deleted?

i never said it made them bad. i personally am just not going to support their business when they want to venture into the realm of politics i do not agree with.

the comments that were deleted were on their instagram post. mine and others. anything that disagreed or called them out for deleting comments.

I did contact Theory 11 in regards to the “cash grab” comment

i may be missing it but i dont see where myself or anyone else called it a cash grab in this thread.

There is a big difference between silencing dissent and refusing to listen to hate.

well that is part of the problem isn't it. these days, on certain topics, any dissent or disagreement is labeled as hate. the messages that i saw were deleted were disagreement.

Just for me to understand, @STL, you're boycotting every company that does something for pride month? Or is there a difference if it doesn't feel like pandering?
Seems like a strange hill to die on but you do you.

well, i am not searching them out but i don't support businesses for a myriad of things. they are free to say or use any practice they like and i am free to vote with my wallet by not supporting them.

... the level of hate in this country is very saddening. I just don't understand why people can't accept there are others out there that are not like them but they also have the right to exist. Though it seems some wish they did not exist.

i don't disagree and if you think it is only one sided then i believe you are wrong. everyone is free to do what they wish and live how they wish. spent 6 years in the military defending that freedom. i certainly dont want it taken away. i do take issue with which certain agendas are being forced into every level of society and have gone way beyond just desiring tolerance and acceptance.

You'll forgive me if I don't take anything you say seriously when you write garbage like this. Take your hate somewhere else please.

much easier for yourself and others to just label what you disagree with as hate and ignore it. again, you are free to do what you like.

at the end of the day, we are all free to do what we please, well in a lot of places anyhow unlike at least one country where it is against the law to call someone the wrong pronoun. have whatever take you like and respond accordingly.

[GandalfPC]

which does make it seem more like a quick cash grab than a real effort.

I will also add that T11 has the right to disallow any comments that “disagree” with them producing a pride deck in their companies instagram, and it is quite appropriate for them to do so in a post promoting their pride deck, which as stated above is raising money for charities associated with the cause. It is also within the rights of the mods here to allow or disallow postings that we find outside the bounds of this forum - we are currently allowing this thread to roll on, but should it devolve into a riot we will pull it. Private forums and company promotional accounts are not “free speech platforms”, they are moderated content.


I don’t think anyone has silenced you here, and those labeling the statements made as hate or intolerance are not “ignoring” them - they simply disagree with them. You may label it as intolerance of intolerance if you wish. The root of the matter appears to be your dislike for Pride “inserting itself” into the public square too often or too prevalently - which is not being done causally, but to purposely wipe away the stigma and oppression that has been laid upon a group for a very long time in a very many ways - and we are quite aware that upsets people. Many would like to see the movement pushed back into dark corners and closets, and think things were fine “the way they were” - but they were not fine, they are not fine now, and the work will continue on until they are.

[STLBluesNut]

ahh, i apparently did not see that in his comment.

they certainly do have the right to curate the comments on their post, same as here and any other private social media platform. which isn't always applied equally now is it? that's another issue and rabbit hole. having the right or freedom to do something does not exempt one from consequences of using that right or freedom. even if it were a free speech issue, which it isnt, there can be consequences to what is said. T11 is free to create almost any deck they wish. T11 is free to moderate, curate, disallow, censor their post comment section. T11 is free to support and raise money for any charity they like. no issue from me for them having the freedom to do any of those things.

while this discussion may be uncomfortable for some and obviously many disagree with my stance in particular, i feel like the thread has been respectful on all sides.

[GandalfPC]

Moderation is frequently not applied equally - nor must it be - we certainly try to do so here, in a forum about cards, but were this a forum on gay rights then moderation would of course have a particular slant, as would a forum on any topic considered right or left wing, or any company which has a left or right wing leaning or is promoting a particular cause at the time.

And yes, free speech, even at the level allowed in a moderated forum, has consequences - I would imagine that applies even here, in a card forum, where people might seek to buy/sell/trade. I have also seen card designers waltz over the line and threaten their businesses by taking a stance that the community disagrees with. It is the way the world works.

[CourtCurator]

Weather you recognize it or not, your comments are seething with a disdain that is perfectly encapsulated by the term hate. Your failure to recognize your own hatred does not grant you a pass to impose it upon others without consequence. You are angry because when others express themselves in a loving way that you don’t agree with, you believe you should be afforded the same freedoms when you do so in a hateful way. That isn’t the way human interactions work, and it is not an equitable comparison.

You talk out of both sides of your mouth. You say you spent time in the military defending a freedom you now admonish your fellow citizens for exercising. Speak out against the things you don’t like all you want. Pissing and moaning about the reaction you get when you treat others unkindly, as though the world should just bend to the way you see things, is contrary to the very nature of the freedom you claim to hold so dear. If you think you should be able to dictate how others express themselves, you don’t understand what the word even means.

[STLBluesNut]

i do not disagree. although, i do think it is somewhat ironic when that unequal standard is applied by groups that are ''fighting for equality''.

[GandalfPC]

Honestly there is something called “reading the room”, and as this forum is for card collectors, who are for all intensive purposes “patrons of the arts”, art patrons being generally a progressive and tolerant crowd - what response did you expect?

[GandalfPC]

Fighting for equality does not mean fighting for equal rights to oppress, marginalize or ostracize others - nor does being tolerant mean being tolerant of intolerance - there is nothing ironic about it, nor does the wordplay used by <insert name of favorite right wing pundit here> make it so

[EvilDuncan]

It's easy to label it as hate because it SOUNDS TO ME like outright bigotry towards gay people. Sure, there are some that take pride stuff a little too far in my opinion, but calling them

alphabet people

is incredibly disrespectful, and makes your views quite clear.

[STLBluesNut]

Honestly there is something called “reading the room”, and as this forum is for card collectors, who are for all intensive purposes “patrons of the arts”, art patrons being generally a progressive and tolerant crowd - what response did you expect?

i was expressing my opinion about a card company and their deck and practices. i expected no less of a response from others that disagreed with me. fine with me, it doesn't hurt my feelings any. people disagree and, has been said above, there are millions, probably billions, of worldviews. pick whichever you like or, better yet, form your own. just expressing mine. feel free to disagree.

also, feel free to correct me that i am in the general section of said forum where expressing opinions is allowed as everyone here has done.

... SOUNDS TO ME...

= your opinion. you have no idea what my stance is on the subject. as i have not discussed that and probably would not discuss the nuance of that topic in this forum, nor would it likely be allowed. feel free to PM me if you would like to know where i stand on anything you assume i am bigoted on.

again, T11 is free to do produce any deck, of legal subject matter, and are free to moderate their posts. i am free to disagree and not support that company. also, i am free to discuss my opinion about it. its all good folks, no offense taken here. some of you may be offended and that is all good too. there is no right, that i am aware of anywhere, to not be offended. not my intention to offend anyone on purpose. im not the one here name calling or labeling anyone on this forum.

Fighting for equality does not mean fighting for equal rights to oppress, marginalize or ostracize others

that isn't the case here if that is what you are implying.

... makes your views quite clear.

the only thing made quite clear hear is that you have assumed what my views are. again, you can pm me and discuss or ask any question you want. hell, you can even post those responses here if a moderator lets you. ive got nothing to hide.

[GandalfPC]

This post was allowed specifically because it was in the General section, and would have been removed from the “new decks” section - so no correction is needed. Of course the content of “general playing cards” is not unmoderated and as stated, should this devolve it will be dealt with - one might argue that it has strayed far from a discussion about cards already, but that has been foreseen and will not be the sole cause of it being pulled.

I was not implying anything, I was directly addressing the “unequal fighting for equality” post - perhaps I misunderstood your meaning and you can feel free to clarify.

As for Duncans statement - “alphabet people” is indeed crossing a line and I personally have had to debate whether it should be pulled or allowed to stand - and frankly I am not sure that letting it stand was the correct decision.


As to reading the room, one does not go to a wine tasting event in Marthas Vineyard to debate that beer is superior - and in this case since we are discussing human beings and not beverages, one might expect a touch more pushback

[Harvonsgard]

Can I be pro-equality and still laugh about the alphabet people joke?

[GandalfPC]

Can I be pro-equality and still laugh about the alphabet people joke?

You can, and people do still laugh when old people slip and fall on ice, but I think it is better if we don’t. There are plenty of “off color” jokes that are not terribly appropriate, and in the case of the alphabet comment, it was not used in the context of a joke.

It is human nature to find some things funny - there is nothing wrong with that, but we are still responsible for our utterances.

“How many polish people does it take to screw in a lightbulb? Just one, and go screw yourself for asking”

[STLBluesNut]

This post was allowed specifically because it was in the General section, and would have been removed from the “new decks” section - so no correction is needed. Of course the content of “general playing cards” is not unmoderated and as stated, should this devolve it will be dealt with - one might argue that it has strayed far from a discussion about cards already, but that has been foreseen and will not be the sole cause of it being pulled.

I was not implying anything, I was directly addressing the “unequal fighting for equality” post - perhaps I misunderstood your meaning and you can feel free to clarify.

As for Duncans statement - “alphabet people” is indeed crossing a line and I personally have had to debate whether it should be pulled or allowed to stand - and frankly I am not sure that letting it stand was the correct decision.

that is why i posted here. i started this as a post of this is what T11 playing card company is doing and i will not support them. just as i have been vocal on why i have not supported the successor.

my point on the irony is when a person or group is arguing/fighting for equality then applies an unequal standard in moderation of comments on a platform. for example, championing a cause of everyone having an equal voice or freedom to say what they like and then unequally deleting comments of one particular view or side of a discussion.

i can edit that portion of the statement or you can edit it as you have the authority granted by the owner of this privately held forum.