VXD Mk1: Las Vegas Edition

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Re: VXD Mk1: Las Vegas Edition

Unread postby badpete69 » Thu Aug 03, 2017 4:47 pm  

Overall I am glad i followed my gut instinct on this project.... PASS!! :ugdance: :ugdance:
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Re: VXD Mk1: Las Vegas Edition

Unread postby VXD » Thu Aug 03, 2017 5:02 pm  

Badpete

I'm sorry that is your gut feeling on our project. We have put everything into this deck. I hope we and the product delivered changes your mind sometime in the future.

Regards
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Re: VXD Mk1: Las Vegas Edition

Unread postby shaitani » Thu Aug 03, 2017 5:25 pm  

VXD wrote:I don't want to comment on this any further, as I am aware I could damage my fledgling reputation severely by being drawn into something on a chat forum. I would ask for your understanding on this.


I understand, not a problem; and I hope you're equally understanding with me continuing to talk to others here who have contributed to the campaign.

VXD wrote:...you have not lost anything...


I'd say we have. This isn't just a couple of pledges that got a benefit. There's at least 17 I can confirm (11 black, 6 stars/stripes sets backers), and an unclear number of other people that may have done add-ons. There are 158 listed backers, 41 of which are under Traditional Tuck pledges and will be refunded. So we're looking at 17+ out of 117 people that are benefitting. I wouldn't call (just ballparking here with the add-on backers) ~30% of backers getting the benefit a "few" people.

Ignoring the emotional unpleasantness of feeling like we're getting jipped, the literal thing we've lost is some of the value of the thing we bought. To illustrate with an extreme example, imagine if VXD sells the rest of the limited runs for $10 a piece. That would bring the market value of these things down. Well, so would giving 30% of the backers a deal to buy all 3 FDIs for $150. Not by as much as my extreme example of $10 a piece, but it would absolutely have an effect.

For disclosure: I have gone ahead and requested a refund, I've also always been on the fence with this project and I think this managerial decision was kind of the last straw for me personally.
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Re: VXD Mk1: Las Vegas Edition

Unread postby VXD » Fri Aug 04, 2017 2:17 am  

Shaitani

I apologise that you feel that way re my managerial decision. I hope I can get you back on the other side of the fence with VXD one day.

FYI - For all backers.....the remaining FDI decks will ALWAYS be sold at higher prices (by us) after this KS campaign. That was always obvious and certain for me, otherwise a KS is kind of meaningless and backers are not 'rewarded' as such (assuming the KS limited stock doesn't sell out on KS).

Regards
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Re: VXD Mk1: Las Vegas Edition

Unread postby vasta41 » Fri Aug 04, 2017 7:32 am  

VXD wrote:Shaitani

I apologise that you feel that way re my managerial decision. I hope I can get you back on the other side of the fence with VXD one day.

That day should have been long before this campaign even saw the light of day. Never forget the 6 P's: prior planning prevents piss poor performance. Maybe, just maybe you can come back with a vengeance and prove me wrong but VXD now has a bad taste in my mouth. I'm sorry that you ran into issues but I think I speak for everyone here when I say I'm not surprised- it's almost expected at this point so it's not really even that big of a deal. KS projects are a gamble but I would estimate that at least 95% of the projects I've backed have eventually got to me, as advertised. The other 5% were either not as advertised or worse, not delivered at all. I'd surely rather wait for a deck to come in late than have no deck at all. But that's what I'm getting here. Now I have to go through a stupid refund process because a traditional tuck cannot be made.

I thank God that I'm not one of the people who pledged more money to get something that cost a whole bunch of people less money but the cavalier way VXD is acting about it would make me lose my mind:
VXD wrote:A few have gained in this situation, none have lost.

Is that a joke? If I were selling everyone t-shirts for $10 and then sold you one for $50, don't tell me you wouldn't be pissed once you found out everyone else got the same thing for $40 less. I'll end here by defining the word fraud: wrongful deception intended to result in financial gain.
Hmmmm
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Re: VXD Mk1: Las Vegas Edition

Unread postby VXD » Fri Aug 04, 2017 7:55 am  

Paul

So I offer a full refund to all backers and you suggest I am a fraudster?

I understand you are very angry that I'm not able to deliver the deck in the traditional tuck and I apologise for that, again.

Regards
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Re: VXD Mk1: Las Vegas Edition

Unread postby vasta41 » Fri Aug 04, 2017 8:16 am  

VXD wrote:Paul

So I offer a full refund to all backers and you suggest I am a fraudster?

I understand you are very angry that I'm not able to deliver the deck in the traditional tuck and I apologise for that, again.

Regards


Whoa now, I never called anyone a fraudster nor did I suggest you were. But to clarify I made two separate points- no standard tucks suck and devaluing pledges sucks even more (look up any topic on UC in regards to other deck designers selling off their decks to ToM for less than people pledged for and you'll find that we're not picking on you, we just hate when people do that because it's a nasty, underhanded business practice that shouldn't exist).
I don't even have a horse in the "devaluing pledges" race but suggesting that people lost nothing when they actually paid more for something that others did not is incorrect. You may have forgotten that the purpose of KS is to help make dreams realities. When someone pledges a lot of money for your campaign to fund, you should be grateful because those very people are helping more than others to make your dream a reality and without them, no deck would exist. Those are the people that should be rewarded the most. By devaluing their pledge how do you think that makes them feel? You might as well be saying, "I know you guys gave me more money than these other people for the exact same reward but thanks for nothing, I'm going to give it to all these other people at a lower price than you paid. But don't worry! You lost nothing." Except they did- and stop trying to convince yourself otherwise.
The part about the lack of standard tuck is obviously not fraudulent at all. But don't sit there acting all noble because you're offering refunds. I pledged for something described on the project page that will most likely not be delivered. In that scenario you absolutely should be offering refunds. So don't pat yourself on the back too hard for doing what you need to be doing.
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Re: VXD Mk1: Las Vegas Edition

Unread postby vasta41 » Fri Aug 04, 2017 8:40 am  

I'd like to clarify one more thing. All the things that you seem to be upset about (production issues, funding delays, etc.) aren't even that big of a deal in my book. That kind of stuff happens when attempting something that's never been done. And with all the massive amounts of hype and videos surrounding the project I was genuinely looking forward to my deck.
But having run into problems, my beef is the way you're handling them. Again, it's not my fight but devaluing of pledges is not cool. The standard tuck thing sucks and I'm sure I'm taking it harder than most but I only collect playing cards in standard tucks- no tarot decks, no sideways tucks, no oversized wooden tucks, and certainly no rounded metal tucks. So while I'm sore about that I will reluctantly accept a refund.
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Re: VXD Mk1: Las Vegas Edition

Unread postby PrincessTrouble » Fri Aug 04, 2017 5:19 pm  

shermjack wrote:The right thing for the creator to do is to refund all FDI backers the difference between the FDI and non-FDI decks. He has been open and upfront about things so far, so let's see how this issue is handled.


This is the right thing to do. It's great that some people will get upgraded at no cost, but what about those of us who paid a premium for the same thing they are getting at a discount? If you passed that discount on to the FDI backers, then that would be fair.
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Re: VXD Mk1: Las Vegas Edition

Unread postby guru » Fri Aug 04, 2017 5:37 pm  

Hi Felipe,

If you can message me the number of traditional tucks that got pledged on Kickstarter, I might be able to help or provide guidance. It is just a matter of getting traditional tuckbox produced and if your German printer is unable to do it, then you may want to find someone else who can get it done for you. If you feel it oversimplifies the challenges you are facing, then I apologize for my ignorance and you can elaborate further if you like.


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Re: VXD Mk1: Las Vegas Edition

Unread postby shaitani » Fri Aug 04, 2017 6:58 pm  

VXD wrote:Shaitani

I apologise that you feel that way re my managerial decision. I hope I can get you back on the other side of the fence with VXD one day.


Absolutely possible, I hold no grudges of any kind and there is no ill will from me. I just have a sour taste in my mouth from the way the campaign was run, and I would approach a future project with a very skeptical view.

VXD wrote:FYI - For all backers.....the remaining FDI decks will ALWAYS be sold at higher prices (by us) after this KS campaign. That was always obvious and certain for me, otherwise a KS is kind of meaningless and backers are not 'rewarded' as such (assuming the KS limited stock doesn't sell out on KS).

Regards


The issue isn't what you would sell the FDI decks for afterward, but what "the market" will deem their value at. Take a look at Jackson Robinson's Legacy cases, he's pretty much never sold them for less than his KS, yet they are worth like 40% less on ebay right now. Everyone who backed on KS got screwed, they paid $175 for something no one would pay them $175 for. Why that happened is another story, but the point is, how much the creator sells something for is almost completely irrelevant to how much the thing is worth. Other things define that, for example, creator behavior.

One last thing, I don't think anyone here would consider anything that happened fraudulent by any stretch.
Fraud is purposeful misrepresentation for gain. I personally never got the feeling from you guys that you were deceiving anyone.
I think something bad happened, the numbers aren't adding up as you wanted, and so you're making decisions (at least one poor one) to try to compensate.
You're also offering a refund; for traditional tucks you didn't have a choice, but for FDI backers who may not agree with your decisions, it's some sign of good will.
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Re: VXD Mk1: Las Vegas Edition

Unread postby shermjack » Sat Aug 05, 2017 7:53 pm  

This is a quote from the latest update from VXD...
So, while we at VERTEX DECK will take a much bigger loss and many more backers will now regretfully lose their units, I have to pursue the following revised course (full details):

Refund all traditional tuck pledges in full (incl. shipping)
Refund all non-First Day Issue units of the metal case variety in full (incl. shipping)
Refund all traditional tucks in the 'Limited Tier Triple' pledge category (refund of $39)
Refund all add-ons


Based on the this update, it seems that the ONLY decks that will be delivered to backers are the FDI decks, which is a little disappointing. I understand Felipe's frustration with how things have turned out and appreciate him listening to feedback (though it seems not all), but I still don't think that this is the best solution for anyone, including VXD.

If he did the following, I believe that VXD would be out less revenue and there would be more goodwill from his backers for providing excellent customer service:
- Outsource the traditional tucks as most other card printers do on occasion...Sunish has offered his assistance and I am sure that Sunish would/could provide a quality tuck for a reasonable price, especially since the traditional tuck was so simple in design
- Refund the 11USD to the FDI backers ... I am sure that refunding 11USD per FDI deck is much less than refunding all the non-FDI backers @ 49 each. Plus the fact that ALL backers get decks instead of now only FDI backers getting decks, which I would guess will not sit well with the non-FDI backers and thus negatively affect the company's image

Yes, VXD would be out some money and have to do a little more leg work (for the traditional tucks), but I don't think it would be as much of a hit as the revenues that they will lose now by refunding everything except FDI decks as well as the loss of goodwill by many backers, who are the strongest supporters of the deck to date.

Hope it is not too late to re-consider as I would have really liked to have this deck in my collection. :?
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Re: VXD Mk1: Las Vegas Edition

Unread postby guru » Sat Aug 05, 2017 8:25 pm  

shermjack wrote: - Outsource the traditional tucks as most other card printers do on occasion...Sunish has offered his assistance and I am sure that Sunish would/could provide a quality tuck for a reasonable price, especially since the traditional tuck was so simple in design


We did exchange PMs on this and it looks to me that all options were already considered by Felipe. He mentioned that he did consider MPC for trad. tucks but had to let it go for some reasons. Though I could have handled it much better than MPC but I do believe Felipe did his homework before rolling out the latest update. It is not a win-win situation for all parties but things are more complex than what they appear to be.

I understand it can be a lot unnerving to first time creators at least, and wish Felipe and VXD all the best for the pending work in Production & fulfillment.
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Re: VXD Mk1: Las Vegas Edition

Unread postby jerichoholic » Sun Aug 06, 2017 8:46 am  

I know you can't please everyone but seems he's only interested in pleasing his highest paying customers. Sorry out of luck to everyone else.
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Re: VXD Mk1: Las Vegas Edition

Unread postby PrincessTrouble » Sun Aug 06, 2017 2:27 pm  

With his new solution, I will get zero decks after pledging $234. This is a step backwards, for sure. It seems like a slap in the face that he is so easily willing to throw away my support.
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Re: VXD Mk1: Las Vegas Edition

Unread postby badpete69 » Sun Aug 06, 2017 3:10 pm  

I think at this stage of the overall hobby, if it is not a project by a well known and KS proven artist/creator, then it is a pass for me. Experience has shown that most decks from first time creator are usually available in the after market at either the same price or sometime even lower..

I have diminished greatly KS projects and I am working on totally hehehe
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Re: VXD Mk1: Las Vegas Edition

Unread postby rousselle » Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:06 am  

Where are we supposed to PM the project creator? I PMed on Kickstarter a few days ago, but no response as of yet. Is there a more preferred place to send PMs, or is this just a case of being swamped with responses and trying to sort through them all. :-)

Thanks!
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Re: VXD Mk1: Las Vegas Edition

Unread postby vasta41 » Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:44 am  

FYI my pledge has been refunded.
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Re: VXD Mk1: Las Vegas Edition

Unread postby 4.of.Clubs » Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:14 pm  

badpete69 wrote:I think at this stage of the overall hobby, if it is not a project by a well known and KS proven artist/creator, then it is a pass for me. Experience has shown that most decks from first time creator are usually available in the after market at either the same price or sometime even lower..

I have diminished greatly KS projects and I am working on totally hehehe


Agree 100%, I now just use P52 to look at new decks added then hunt them down.


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Re: VXD Mk1: Las Vegas Edition

Unread postby RichK » Mon Sep 04, 2017 12:20 pm  

Finally got my refund.
Move on, nothing to see here.
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