Marquis Playing Cards by Brendan Hong now live

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Re: Marquis Playing Cards by Brendan Hong now live

Unread post by sinjin7 »

Don't get me wrong, I think artists have the right to charge whatever they want for their decks. But Brenden does, in fact, overprice his decks (with one exception) relative to the market standard:

Hive deck = $22.00 per deck shipped. And this was back in 2014!
Hive 2 deck = $12.00 per deck shipped. This is the one exception.
Dynasty deck = $16.00 per green deck shipped, $22.00 per red deck shipped.
Marquis deck = $16.00 per deck shipped.

My standard for market price is $12.00 shipped for a custom KS deck. Some may even view the current market price for KS at $14.00 shipped. But I still see artists selling well-designed custom decks for $12.00 shipped on KS, so I set my standard there. Whether you view the market standard at $12.00 or $14.00, it is an undeniable economic fact that $16.00 is higher than either $12.00 or $14.00.

Its a credit to Brendan's talent that he's able to create a big enough fan base to support him selling decks at high prices. But while I think he's a talented guy, there's not enough there to compel me to pay $16.00+ for his decks, not with so many other good options out there. Others happily disagree. . .
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Re: Marquis Playing Cards by Brendan Hong now live

Unread post by vasta41 »

sinjin7 wrote:Its a credit to Brendan's talent that he's able to create a big enough fan base to support him selling decks at high prices. But while I think he's a talented guy, there's not enough there to compel me to pay $16.00+ for his decks...
I couldn't agree more on both accounts. But I would pay $16 for a deck of cards... with foil backs, embossed tucks, printed by the USPCC! But for these decks, no. And if THIS is true:
Marcus wrote:The costs to print with both USPCC and EPCC have gone up since EPCC launched a few years ago, and the difference isn't as big anymore.
...then why isn't EVERYONE printing at USPCC!? Either A) the price difference is recent and designers are just now going to start printing more at the USPCC, B) designers have registration issues with their close-to-the-border designs (which isn't a majority of decks) and don't trust USPCC, or C) Marcus is wrong. I admit I'm biased toward USPCC but it doesn't make sense to me to print a deck overseas if something like 90% of its backers live in the US if the price difference is the same or very similar. My two cents anyway.
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Re: Marquis Playing Cards by Brendan Hong now live

Unread post by sinjin7 »

When T11 came out with their gold MetalLux Rarebit deck (USPCC, foil on card backs, foiled and embossed matte black tuck, fully custom) for under $10 per deck, that was a game-changer for me. I get that T11 is a bigger company so they have the advantage of an economy of scale over individual designers and can produce things at a lower cost, but that doesn't change the fact that it was an option for us, and we didn't have to wait until the end of this year to get them. It made me re-asses what kind of value I'm getting for what I pay independent of art/design.

Here is my personal Card Collecting Manifesto: I now have the expectation that any deck I collect must have a foiled and embossed tuck, is fully custom, and is printed by a reputable printer. This is my minimal expectation, and this deck should be priced under $14.00 per deck shipped. That is the reality of the market we're in with so many good decks being produced and hitting these minimum requirements. Now for me to be incentivized to go over this market rate, I need something more, like foiled card backs, die-cut tucks, or art/design that speaks to me and moves me. And it's that last element, the art/design, that will differentiate most collectors from each other and what they choose to buy or not buy.
vasta41 wrote:
Marcus wrote:The costs to print with both USPCC and EPCC have gone up since EPCC launched a few years ago, and the difference isn't as big anymore.
...then why isn't EVERYONE printing at USPCC!? Either A) the price difference is recent and designers are just now going to start printing more at the USPCC, B) designers have registration issues with their close-to-the-border designs (which isn't a majority of decks) and don't trust USPCC, or C) Marcus is wrong. I admit I'm biased toward USPCC but it doesn't make sense to me to print a deck overseas if something like 90% of its backers live in the US if the price difference is the same or very similar. My two cents anyway.
I think the obvious option D) is that the USPCC is still more expensive than the Taiwanese/Chinese printers but designers who use EPCC/LPCC prefer to pocket the savings to increase their profits instead of passing the savings on to the buyers. AND THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT. Designers get to eat and provide for their families and build a 401K just like the rest of us. But let's not be naïve about it, either. A designer can spout on all he/she want about how Asian printers are better, faster, easier to work with, or can do stuff that the USPCC can't do, and while some of these things may be true (or not), in most cases its really about the bottom line. None of us were born yesterday and we all know what BS smells like.

What is interesting for me is that if Trump follows through with his international trade policies, we'll see heavy import taxes on all things produced overseas. This means that it may in fact be significantly more expensive to import EPCC/LPCC produced decks to the United States. If this happens, I'm dying to see if any of the designers that were so high and mighty about the EPCC/LPCC continue using them. I mean, its still all about producing the best product and not about where the printer is or the bottom line, right? Right? (Damn, something's starting to stink...) What I expect to see happening is that a lot of these designers will experience a (suspicious) change of heart and start talking about why the USPCC has been around for 150 for a reason, and that their registration isn't so bad after all, and that nothing beats Air Cushion finish, and that they want to make America great again and produce domestically. :roll:

Anyway, I don't want to hijack this thread any more than I have already. I apologize to Brendan. I actually think his art and style is very nice, its why I have a lot of his previous work in my collection. But the Royal Marquis is just more of the same for me, and there just isn't enough for me to buy into the Noble Marquis edition at $16.00. I expect these to eventually fund, and I hope all you Brendan fans enjoy your Marquis decks.
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Re: Marquis Playing Cards by Brendan Hong now live

Unread post by vasta41 »

sinjin7 wrote:What is interesting for me is that if Trump follows through with his international trade policies, we'll see heavy import taxes on all things produced overseas. This means that it may in fact be significantly more expensive to import EPCC/LPCC produced decks to the United States. If this happens, I'm dying to see if any of the designers that were so high and mighty about the EPCC/LPCC continue using them. I mean, its still all about producing the best product and not about where the printer is or the bottom line, right? Right? (Damn, something's starting to stink...) What I expect to see happening is that a lot of these designers will experience a (suspicious) change of heart and start talking about why the USPCC has been around for 150 for a reason, and that their registration isn't so bad after all, and that nothing beats Air Cushion finish, and that they want to make America great again and produce domestically. :roll:
I agree but will add that if the tax happens and designers switch to USPCC then I won't need an explanation as to why. I know it will be about "the bottom line" and I too say, "good for them." Just like I don't have a problem with them using the Asian printers now. Admitting it's to earn a higher profit would be unnecessary for me- I'm not naïve enough to think it's for any other reason than profit (in most cases), which I too commend them for. Like you said: artists have to eat too! I prefer USPCC but at the end of the day I own many E/LPCC decks that are just fine.
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Re: Marquis Playing Cards by Brendan Hong now live

Unread post by Bikefanatic »

I wasn't too fond of the Royal deck but since I like his "original" style of courts, that's why I got out. The Gray tuck is still odd but hopefully with the gold, embossing, etc it may turn out good.
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Re: Marquis Playing Cards by Brendan Hong now live

Unread post by shermjack »

Bikefanatic wrote: The Gray tuck is still odd but hopefully with the gold, embossing, etc it may turn out good.
As per the KS project description, the tuck is made out of 'premium shimmering stock', which I assume Brendan can't simulate very well with a rendering. On top of the premium stock, the tuck will have silver (inside & outside) and copper (outside) foil as well as embossing...I trust Brendan's design sense and am confident that the tuck box will look sweet :D BTW, the gold foil is on the card backs, which will mean I have to open a deck :shock:
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Re: Marquis Playing Cards by Brendan Hong now live

Unread post by RichK »

As I write this there are 3 weeks to go.

Is this desperation to fund because of deck price or generosity of Brendan? Per the Kardistry link Brendan is having a contest to give away signed and prototype decks based on money raised and backer totals. I didn't back any previous works of his so I don't know if he did this before.

http://www.kardify.com/2017/03/contest- ... m=facebook
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Re: Marquis Playing Cards by Brendan Hong now live

Unread post by TGunitedcardists »

RichK wrote:As I write this there are 3 weeks to go.

Is this desperation to fund because of deck price or generosity of Brendan? Per the Kardistry link Brendan is having a contest to give away signed and prototype decks based on money raised and backer totals. I didn't back any previous works of his so I don't know if he did this before.

http://www.kardify.com/2017/03/contest- ... m=facebook
I think it's just smart and a nice thing to do. Back the project and you have a chance to win. Just marketing to me.
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Re: Marquis Playing Cards by Brendan Hong now live

Unread post by Marcus »

They had a similar thing for the Dynasty campaign as well.
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Re: Marquis Playing Cards by Brendan Hong now live

Unread post by TGunitedcardists »

This project still has a hill to climb. I recently added on another deck. Every bit helps. I hope there's a push and trickles over the finish line.
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Re: Marquis Playing Cards by Brendan Hong now live

Unread post by Bikefanatic »

"Here is my personal Card Collecting Manifesto: I now have the expectation that any deck I collect must have a foiled and embossed tuck, is fully custom, and is printed by a reputable printer. This is my minimal expectation, and this deck should be priced under $14.00 per deck shipped. That is the reality of the market we're in with so many good decks being produced and hitting these minimum requirements. Now for me to be incentivized to go over this market rate, I need something more, like foiled card backs, die-cut tucks, or art/design that speaks to me and moves me. And it's that last element, the art/design, that will differentiate most collectors from each other and what they choose to buy or not buy."

Very well said. I agree with this 100%. Sometimes without having the extras going over $14 is due to how really good the artwork is and the color scheme. That's why Noble gets a "pass" or a buy I should say.
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Re: Marquis Playing Cards by Brendan Hong now live

Unread post by Magic_Orthodoxy »

wow - this project stalled out - crazy when this is one of the most well designed decks out there right now - If you can - post the link to your social media outlets and let's try to generate some buzz - THANKS !!! :D

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Re: Marquis Playing Cards by Brendan Hong now live

Unread post by RichK »

Magic_Orthodoxy wrote:wow - this project stalled out - crazy when this is one of the most well designed decks out there right now - If you can - post the link to your social media outlets and let's try to generate some buzz - THANKS !!! :D

Project link: http://tinyurl.com/mvqtxkf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I think it's the deck price even though Brendan explained it in Update #4. Seeing $16 for a basic deck, no frills, looks expensive even though it's an $11 deck with the $5 postage (USA) built in.

I asked Brendan why not have lower deck prices and then when pledging have the shipping appear after but he asked random backers of previous decks and they'd rather have shipping built in and not added afterwards. Backwards thinking by me but I'm no creator.
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Re: Marquis Playing Cards by Brendan Hong now live

Unread post by Magic_Orthodoxy »

meh, it's not that high in my book, iv'e seen people pay way more for Fontaines !!!!

And when so many people talk about how they want original courts - Brendan has given you 2 decks that are NOT cookie cutter - two unique decks with two unique jokers, aces and complete different sets of courts.

2 weeks left of the campaign - show your support for GOOD art and GOOD design
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Re: Marquis Playing Cards by Brendan Hong now live

Unread post by jerichoholic »

Sadly this one seems to have flatlined funding wise and isn't looking good. Hopefully it pulls through.
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Re: Marquis Playing Cards by Brendan Hong now live

Unread post by TGunitedcardists »

Looks like it's going to need a last push near the end, but it doesn't look good.

I think this project didn't get funded right away because:

The project is in Canadian dollars and the shipping is included. If the project were to be in USD and shipping added on after, the price would look lower than it is. When Stockholm 17 does their projects in SEK, it's also a problem, but he really spells everything out very clearly, with extra conversion charts and goes the extra mile for people who hesitate or get confused with anything other than USD.

There is one too many decks right off the bat. I think it would have been better to stick with two decks and the 3rd as a stretch goal.

There were a few big projects just before Brendan launched. That sucked a lot of the money from people. Just unlucky timing.

More cross promotions and videos showing the cards early, or even before the campaign would have been a better start.

A mass email cross promotion/mass email from Jackson Robinson would have helped. KingsWild has the biggest list and the most backers. An email blast from him would have been a big push in the right direction.

I really hope this project finds a way. The art is fantastic. It's head-shaking that a project like this one, with such strong and beautiful artwork, struggles to fund.
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Re: Marquis Playing Cards by Brendan Hong now live

Unread post by sinjin7 »

RichK wrote:I asked Brendan why not have lower deck prices and then when pledging have the shipping appear after but he asked random backers of previous decks and they'd rather have shipping built in and not added afterwards. Backwards thinking by me but I'm no creator.
Whether it's $16.00 per deck with "free" shipping (US domestic), or $11.00 per deck + $5.00 shipping, at the end of the day it's still cost $16.00 for a deck. To list it as $16.00 with shipping included allows you to hide your actual shipping cost, and I suspect that's the reason why most projects that include "free" shipping do so.
Magic_Orthodoxy wrote:And when so many people talk about how they want original courts - Brendan has given you 2 decks that are NOT cookie cutter - two unique decks with two unique jokers, aces and complete different sets of courts.

2 weeks left of the campaign - show your support for GOOD art and GOOD design
This is a typically well-designed deck by Brendan, similar to his past successful projects, so the problem here obviously isn't the art/design. If you look at the Kicktraq for this project, he's made virtually no money after the first week, and the vast majority of the money came in the first two days. What this tells you is that his usual fan base backed within the first couple of days, but he hasn't been able to get many others after that to pledge. There's two reasons for this:

First, Brendan has never been one to vigorously promote his projects. Usually all he has is Kardify and cross-promotion from whatever project Jackson has going on at the time, and its no different here with Marquis (yes, Jackson has cross-promoted this in a post campaign Arthurian update on April 3). But that's just like Trump campaigning in a red state, he's not reaching beyond his base.

Secondly, he priced his deck higher than the market rate for a custom deck on Kickstarter. After his first week, I'm sure many new people viewed his KS project, but he failed to attract much additional pledges. Again, there's nothing wrong with the art/design. The majority of people willing to pay $16.00 shipped for a standard deck are his fans, and they've already pledged in the first few days. So the high price has to be the reason he's not getting much more support.

I've read his 4th update where he allegedly tried to justify his pricing. He goes on about covering his production costs, shipping costs, KS fees, and a small reserve to cover unexpected costs. Honestly, to me it was a bunch of non-information with no specifics to explain why his pricing is higher than any other designer outside of the U.S. on KS (who, by the way, deals with the exact same issues regarding exchange rates and costs).

For once, I just wish someone would have the balls to say, "Yeah, my prices are high, its because I want to make MONEY! My $#!t is good and you're gonna pay for it because you need it. I'm charging you more than others because I'm better than they are and I'm gonna be paid what I think I'm worth." I would have much much more respect for that, even if the market eventually proves them wrong. Instead, we usually get this pussy-footing around about how what money they make is barely going to break even, like they're some charity doing us a favor. Sure, you're using an Asian printer because they're the best quality, not because their quotes are lower and pads your profit margin. :roll: Like we don't know that you're producing many more decks beyond what's needed to fulfill KS backers, so those extra decks are pure profit once you unload them into the aftermarket.

So getting back to the Marquis deck, I imagine it'll go the way the first Hive deck went and eventually (barely) fund at the very end. I mean, the Hive was hideously over-priced and it still funded, so with the Marquis not being ridiculously over the market rate, it should be able to get to the promised land.
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Re: Marquis Playing Cards by Brendan Hong now live

Unread post by shaitani »

There's one thing I haven't seen brought up that kind of irked me that might explain soome of the lack of additional funds. Why does it cost $16 for the Noble pledge but $15.50 for a Noble add-on? I thought the higher price was about absorbing the shipping costs; so add-ons should be cheaper right? I'd bet if that Noble add-on was $12 (et al) this would already be funded.
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Re: Marquis Playing Cards by Brendan Hong now live

Unread post by sinjin7 »

One Noble deck shipped is $21.00 Canadian (or $15.75 UDS by current exchange rates) and one added on deck is $15.00 Canadian (or $11.25 USD). Maybe you're reading the Add-on list in USD instead of Canadian?
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Re: Marquis Playing Cards by Brendan Hong now live

Unread post by shaitani »

sinjin7 wrote:One Noble deck shipped is $21.00 Canadian (or $15.75 UDS by current exchange rates) and one added on deck is $15.00 Canadian (or $11.25 USD). Maybe you're reading the Add-on list in USD instead of Canadian?
Wow.
I swear I re-read the add-on list 4 or 5 times to make sure I was using the right number "$15 US" "$15 US" "$15 US". It's actually $15 CAD to ship to US. I thought it was $17 CAD / $15 US.
My bad entirely. I should have caught that Note at the top of the add-on list or second guessed why "World" would be listed as a currency...

Looks like I need to be adding a couple of Nobles.
I wish there was a way to add a Royal deck...
(This is where someone tells me I misread again and it's easy to add a Royal deck.)
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Re: Marquis Playing Cards by Brendan Hong now live

Unread post by Bikefanatic »

Sucks that these could be more good looking decks that won't fund. I agree that cards should be announced and shown a month before their release. Also if the third deck was more available, it'll be more funds.
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Re: Marquis Playing Cards by Brendan Hong now live

Unread post by jerichoholic »

Bikefanatic wrote:Sucks that these could be more good looking decks that won't fund. I agree that cards should be announced and shown a month before their release. Also if the third deck was more available, it'll be more funds.
Isn't the third deck just a different tuck anyway?

I see GW put down their $2000 but that won't be enough.
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Re: Marquis Playing Cards by Brendan Hong now live

Unread post by EndersGame »

I'm really quite excited about the Marquis project - I've posted a review/preview of his work in the Deck Review forum here:

Pictorial Review: Marquis Playing Cards (Brendan Hong)

Pictorial Review: Hive & Dynasty Playing Card (Brendan Hong)

Here's hoping that the Marquis Playing Cards gets enough support to be funded!
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Re: Marquis Playing Cards by Brendan Hong now live

Unread post by Magic_Orthodoxy »

Pricing aside, Brendan is a good guy and a better designer than most of the crap out there getting funded - I'd rather put my $$$ out there to support talent - and what a true designer deck (with some actual thought put into it) should look like.

I say back it - up your pledge and see what MOTION we can create - this is his last weekend to get a good strong push - together we can make a difference.

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Re: Marquis Playing Cards by Brendan Hong now live

Unread post by Bikefanatic »

It's been some years since my pledge had to be canceled for a project/ not reaching funding. A lot of wack stuff out now, I hope there's another chance in the future. The art work of these decks are too good not to be created.
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Re: Marquis Playing Cards by Brendan Hong now live

Unread post by EndersGame »

Yes, it's a real pity that the project for the Marquis decks didn't get funded. Hopefully in time to come Brendan Hong will be in a position to relaunch it with greater success.

It must be very disappointing to put so much hard work into a project like this, and not see it come to fruition.

The fusion of cultural influences that Brendan brings to his designs results in a very unique style like no other. He is a very talented designer who deserves support, and I wish him every success in the future.
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Re: Marquis Playing Cards by Brendan Hong now live

Unread post by vasta41 »

EndersGame wrote:He is a very talented designer who deserves support, and I wish him every success in the future.
Brendan is very talented but at those prices, I'm sorry- he does not deserve my support. In fact there isn't a person here that doesn't think his artwork on the project is fantastic so it can be argued that the sole reason this didn't fund is because the decks were just too expensive.
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Re: Marquis Playing Cards by Brendan Hong now live

Unread post by Räpylätassu »

I was just chilling in a sauna, nice and hot and thinking about playing cards. Then my mind started to wander to this project. Why didn't this fund? It is certainly well made design! Then it just kinda hit me. This is not good enough! But wait, you just said it's well made! Yes. If this deck were to come out on 2014, early 2015, this would have passed with flying colors. Right now, at 2017, THIS IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH! The amount of good decks, even great decks was a large one at 2014. But right now we are getting amazing decks all the time.

Giovanni keeps hitting home runs all the time. Steve Minty blew my mind with that Japanese themed design. Randy made his best deck so far with Rome. Wylie Beckertt's Wicked Kingdom was literally breathtakeing and that was her first deck. Joker and the Thief have 2 amazing designs done and they claim to have much more on the way. Kirk Slaters Sisterhood of the Blood was an amazing deck and still it did not even won any awards at the Decks of the Year award of 2016. Lorenzo's Gemini is in my mind the best designed custom deck of all time and he seems to out-do that with House of the Rising Spade! The work that Lotrek has been doing has pretty much made Icons Imperial old news already AND THAT IS THE CURRENT DECK OF THE YEAR!

So if we were to scale the design in a scale of 4 to 10, in my mind getting any grade under 9 is not good enough anymore! Makeing a design that grades 8 or B makes it nowadays mediocre and forgettable. If you do not bring your A game, there has to be something new to offer in that deck and this is just pretty much the same kind of artwork we have seen already from Brendan.

The market seems to have quite a cutthroat mentality now, be amazing or you don't make it. I love it.
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Re: Marquis Playing Cards by Brendan Hong now live

Unread post by vasta41 »

This deck was certainly good enough to fund. It was beautifully custom designed just like all the other decks/artists you mentioned. However, the difference between Marquis and all the other projects is PRICE. Here, let me help you remember the cost of all the decks you just mentioned:
Giovanni: His latest project, SINS, averages $16.50 including shipping per deck which includes double foiled (inside and out) and embossed tucks, metallic ink and an extra card
Steve Minty: Hana averages $13 including shipping per deck which includes foiled and embossed tucks with custom seals and metallic ink (and Olympia only cost $10!)
Randy: A standard pair of Rome decks cost $10 each including shipping with foiled and embossed tucks
Wylie Beckertt's Wicked Kingdom: an EB deck cost $10 including shipping, printed by USPCC
Joker and the Thief: their first deck was $10 including shipping for a foiled (inside and out) and embossed tuck and their latest project, Dystopia, was also only $10 with all the same features as J&T NOT TO MENTION was relaunched because the 1st attempt wasn't going to fund due to high prices so they were lowered and funded in the 2nd attempt
Kirk Slaters Sisterhood of the Blood: $13 including shipping for a deck with interior printing and custom seals
Lorenzo's Gemini: the average of all 3 decks cost $13.50 including shipping for decks with foiled & embossed tucks and a limited edition (Noctis) with foil the the back of the cards!
Lotrek: all of his projects sell at a premium but he is experimenting with things never tried before so value is subjective, however they seem to hold up in the aftermarket

Now... Marquis by Brendan Hong: the average cost for each deck was $20 including shipping for 1 deck with a foiled tuck and the other with foil and embossing.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Price.
PRICE.
PRICE! is the sole reason this didn't fund.
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Re: Marquis Playing Cards by Brendan Hong now live

Unread post by rousselle »

I'm one of those goofballs who will order more than one deck of each style being offered by a given project, and *far* more than one deck if I particularly like it... and the price is right.

This project was one where, with the fresh take on the more "standard-like" faces (the "Noble Edition"), I might have backed for a brick. But, yeah... the price.

I still backed for a couple, because I do, indeed, like the design. But I didn't like the design enough to overcome that price for more than a couple decks.

Granted, I didn't buy a brick of Lotrek's Oath decks, either (heh), also because of the price, but I also wouldn't have paid Oath prices for these decks. So, yeah. There's a continuum. I think we all acknowledge that Super Amazing decks will command a certain level of pricing, while Really Very Good decks will command a certain level of pricing that isn't as high.

That's not to sell this deck short, but I have to agree that if these had been priced like Randy's excellent Rome deck, they would have funded and sold in higher quantities like the Rome deck. Would he have made enough profit if he had sold in the same kind of quantities as the Rome deck? A higher quantity at a lower profit margin > zero quantity at a higher profit margin.

Easy for me to say. I don't know what Brendan's goals are. Jackson Robinson always wanted to be one of those designers whose decks commanded a high resale value, but he *also*, in chasing that goal, designed a few mass-produced decks that sold at much higher volumes for much lower prices (I'm thinking of the Civil War decks as the most obvious example.) Brendan's Noble deck has that kind of "fresh-take-on-the-standard-courts" that I would think is well-suited for the "higher volume at a lower price" deck. Paul Carpenter has done that; offered his fresh take on standard for a very affordable price (far less expensive than the other decks vasta41 lists, but this was also a couple years ago) while also offering premium decks on a short run, high-dollar-value basis.

I hope that after Brendan has recuperated from this most recent project, he re-evaluates, like many of his colleagues have (including Joker and Thief, as vasta41 also mentioned) and brings these back to market with a revised pricing structure.
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