Isometric Playing Cards #2: Live on KS

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Isometric Playing Cards #2: Live on KS

Unread post by flashcards »

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Re: Isometric Playing Cards #2: Live on KS

Unread post by rousselle »

For those interested, the first version of Isometric Playing Cards has a thread here: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=6481&hilit=isometric+playing+cards

For what it's worth, I went to the project page on KS and two things in particular stood out. First, (in the negative column, for me at least), was this:
"Isometric Playing Cards No.2 will be printed by a casino playing card manufacturer."
I wish people would not be coy about these things. If it's Cartamundi or USPCC or LPCC or WJP or Gemaco, please just say so.

The second thing that stood out for me (in the positive column) was that the design actually does show a great deal of thought, and this really does look like a big leap forward from the first deck. Now, I did not back the first deck (I almost never back Indigogo projects), so I can't attest to how well Kenneth runs a campaign or delivers on his promises, but based upon images alone, these look like a well thought-out cardist deck, with a strong aesthetic for the minimalist-style courts. Frankly, this is the first minimalist style deck I've seen in a while that appeals to me.

Since I am not a serious cardist, I'd be curious as to how Sinjin7 and others view this design from a cardist point of view.

Did anyone else here back the first version of Kenneth's deck? What was your experience like?
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Re: Isometric Playing Cards #2: Live on KS

Unread post by sinjin7 »

I'm never opposed to more decks with cardistry-centric designs. Having said that, I think the Isometric #2 deck has some issues. I don't know why the concept of minimalist, color-blocked design is considered so great for cardistry. I think this arises from poor imitations of the Virts' decks and lazy design. I don't think the color scheme of this deck is that dynamic. Just because you use red doesn't make it pop. I think you need more than 2 colors to make a geometrically patterned deck like this more interesting (the Bucks' Cadistry Con 2016 deck is a good example). The corner designs on this deck is decent only for right handed regular fans, but right handed reverse fans and left handed fans are going to be terribly bland (it'll basically look like a fanned red NOC deck). I'd rather see irregular borders on the sides to make spreads look better. I think there should always be an interesting circular pattern in the center of the deck for more visual impact on card spins, a small white dot won't cut it.

There are a few positives. I like the corner embellishments on the face of the cards, you can get another fanning pattern with face-out fans, but can still have blank fans as well. I haven't seen enough spot cards to tell if the pips will actually be oriented in a way to be conducive to flourishes, but at least the designer is mindful of it. And you have full customization in this deck.

Half the battle for a cardistry deck is the design, the other half is who the printer is. You can have the most fantastic design, but if the card stock is flimsy and not durable, or if the finish is so poor that the cards can't spread of fan evenly, then no one will use it. I'm very wary of the unidentified printer for this project. It's great that the designer put cardistry first in the design, but I wish it could've been executed a little better.
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Re: Isometric Playing Cards #2: Live on KS

Unread post by flashcards »

Fourteen hours ago I asked which printer they would be using. So far he has chosen to ignore the question even though he has responded to other backers. This does not bode well. I'm with sinjin, the handling of the cards is of utmost importance to me, even though I'm only an occasional cardist. I love the Virts' offerings not only because of the well thought out design but because of the way they handle. With the amount of money this campaign has raised in such a short amount of time, they could easily afford to go with USPCC. To do anything less, in my opinion, indicates that they are more interested in profit margin than producing a quality cardistry product.
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Re: Isometric Playing Cards #2: Live on KS

Unread post by Bikefanatic »

The Virt's creators also are from Singapore but this deck doesn't even compare to them. Courts are ugly.
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Re: Isometric Playing Cards #2: Live on KS

Unread post by rousselle »

Chart is showing a $3,465 drop in pledges today. Yikes! Makes me wonder what happened.
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Re: Isometric Playing Cards #2: Live on KS

Unread post by RichK »

rousselle wrote:Chart is showing a $3,465 drop in pledges today. Yikes! Makes me wonder what happened.
I was surprised by that drop so I read the updates. He said a re-seller had to back out of KS but they are talking behind the scenes.
Move on, nothing to see here.
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Re: Isometric Playing Cards #2: Live on KS

Unread post by Kafoosh »

Hi everyone,

Just to clear up some things about the deck. I'm always happy to chat more here or in private if you have further questions.

1.) The stock
I have chosen to keep the specific identity of the printer confidential. There are several reasons for doing this.
A- At the moment, there are several cardists vying to make their own custom deck of cards. Funding a print run of 1000 decks is pretty easy. People like Hanson Chien are funding custom decks left right and centre. In order to differentiate myself from the literal ton of custom decks, I want to keep the identity of my printer secret so that the cut and quality of my cards are not shared by everyone. Imagine if you made a top quality deck and suddenly any kid with a fontaine style repeating pattern got access to the printer. Your quality becomes less of a selling point. I think it is a stupid decision to arm people with trade secrets for free.
B - I can understand if you don't want to back these cards because of the secrecy of the printer. That is completely fine. These decks are getting printed and I hope you will eventually get to feel the stock. I know most people on united cardists are barely cardists and so it makes sense to not want to put down money on something that you might not use. Either way, I'm quite certain that when you do eventually feel the deck you will like them.
C- USPCC is a good printer, but I think that there are other better printers out there. I have not heard many good things about their small run quality and I think that exploration and experimentation into new companies is a key to advancing cardistry. Look at cardistry touch and cartamundi. I have heard how the cardistry touch deck feels like a perfectly broken in deck right out of the box.

2.) The Design
I can completely understand the comparison to the virt deck. There is no question that we are both competing in the same market and I am happy to be the underdog in this scenario. They have a full designer on staff and I'm just a guy that has never studied design in my life and make no claim to be a designer. I will say however, that I am very pleased with the design, and all the things I have written in the kickstarter I have found to be true. It may be a matter of personal opinion, but that's what design and taste all come down to any way.

@sinjin, I'm afraid I don't agree with you on the matter of right handed reverse fans and left handed fans and card spins. The virt deck, for example, does not have a large circular element in the middle either, but both isometrics and virt decks produce the stroboscopic effect when spun under a camera at a suitable enough shutter speed. Heres what the right hand reverse fans and left handed fans look like with both the front and back designs. For good measure I added in a bunch of other variations as well so you can see that they look nothing like NOCs The images arent well white balanced and are done in a rush so do excuse that. http://imgur.com/a/S4qII
I intentionally made the designs in opposite corners in order to make both left and right hand fanners able to have more colour in their fans. I'm happy to disagree on this matter as it really is a matter of personal opinion, but I think I am justified enough in my opinon, having handled the deck.


@flashcards, I think I missed your first message and only replied to people in general. It was not my intention to ignore you. In fact, this morning after my valentines day date and subsequently waking up, I replied you on kickstarter. I am sorry it took so long to get back to you, but we might be in different time zones. I have also adressed your point about USPCC in my post above about experimentation and USPCCs sub par low print run quality. It is unfortunate that you feel this way about my deck and intentions, but I can assure you I feel diifferently.

@rouselle the drop was actually closer to $5,000 SGD in pledges and since then I've gained back almost 3,000 in non-wholeseller pledges. Lets just say that I've sold a large majority of the thousand decks I had previously planned to print and will probably have to print more. ;)

@bikefanatic your opinion is as valid as anyone elses and I respect your ability to have an opinion.

I'll be checking back now and then to answer questions if you have them. if you'd like to contact me more directly my information is on the kickstarter page.
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Re: Isometric Playing Cards #2: Live on KS

Unread post by sms69x »

Hi Kafoosh,

Thank you for your explanations. It can realy help you getting more funding coming here and talk to the community.

About you not revealing the printer, although I respect that, I can assure you that it will cause more harm than good. Because as you stated, most of us are not core cardists but we can appretiate different card stock as any other cardists. I'll go a bit further and tell you that some guys here can get way more pick regarding card stock than anyother cardist (and they use the decks just to play poker!). So as you see the stock plays a big role even for the simplest card collector.
Keeping the matter in the stcok, for the pictures you post, I can only assume one of two things: you're not a cardist at all (those fans look terrible) or the stock/finish is pretty bad (almost like a NPCC deck)! For what a read I can only assume that you're a cardist, so I can only conclude that hte stock is nothing special after all. Can you elaborate on this matter? Thank you.

Regarding the design, I quite like it, you took ideas from the vVrts and De'vo Dominions and work those together pretty well.. Congratulations.
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Re: Isometric Playing Cards #2: Live on KS

Unread post by sinjin7 »

Kafoosh wrote:@sinjin, I'm afraid I don't agree with you on the matter of right handed reverse fans and left handed fans and card spins. The virt deck, for example, does not have a large circular element in the middle either, but both isometrics and virt decks produce the stroboscopic effect when spun under a camera at a suitable enough shutter speed.
Here is my quote in regards to right handed reverse fans and left handed fans:
sinjin7 wrote:The corner designs on this deck is decent only for right handed regular fans, but right handed reverse fans and left handed fans are going to be terribly bland (it'll basically look like a fanned red NOC deck). I'd rather see irregular borders on the sides to make spreads look better. I think there should always be an interesting circular pattern in the center of the deck for more visual impact on card spins, a small white dot won't cut it.
I should've been clearer with my remark. As I emphasized in my quote, my comment about right handed reverse and left handed fans was in the context of corner design. Obviously the gold part of the design will show at the base of the fans, but the outer part of the fans (as affected by the corner design) are still just plain red, hence the NOC-like comparison. In contrast, your corner design for regular right handed fans will show predominantly gold in the outer part of the fan with pops of red, which is better than just being all gold.

As for the Virts deck not having a circular design in the center of their deck, I consider that a flaw in their deck as well and I knocked them for it when they first came out. As for any stroboscopic effect in the Virt deck (and your deck), I don't see significant enough practical benefits in real life performances of most routines. In my opinion, I think its merely gimmicky when it requires camera tricks to fully perceptualize any alleged stroboscopic effect. A well executed circular center design will have much more visual impact in any type of spins, as opposed to a pattern that requires specific conditions or just the right speed for it to visually manifest with stroboscopics.

When you posted those pictures of fans, is the deck you used made from your secret (probably Taiwanese) printer? I hope not, because (with all due respect) those fans were terribly uneven. And I'm going to guess that the cause of the unevenness is not due to any lack of skill (I bet you can perform kick-ass fans with any USPCC deck) but due to the crappiness of the finish on that deck. If you are truly about advancing cardistry by exploring and experimenting with printers "better" than the USPCC, then why not share your printer? This cloak and dagger trade secret talk seems overly dramatic to me and makes you come off as wanting to advance not cardistry, but only yourself. And that's only if your printer is better than the USPCC. If I only had a dollar for every designer that comes here touting their unknown printer as being superior to the USPCC. . .

It looks like we'll just have to agree to differ. As I said before, I'm always pleased to see more decks for cardistry. Good luck with this campaign, and I hope you'll always seek to improve with every future deck.
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Re: Isometric Playing Cards #2: Live on KS

Unread post by flashcards »

Kafoosh wrote:Hi everyone,

Just to clear up some things about the deck. I'm always happy to chat more here or in private if you have further questions.

1.) The stock
I have chosen to keep the specific identity of the printer confidential. There are several reasons for doing this.
A- At the moment, there are several cardists vying to make their own custom deck of cards. Funding a print run of 1000 decks is pretty easy. People like Hanson Chien are funding custom decks left right and centre. In order to differentiate myself from the literal ton of custom decks, I want to keep the identity of my printer secret so that the cut and quality of my cards are not shared by everyone. Imagine if you made a top quality deck and suddenly any kid with a fontaine style repeating pattern got access to the printer. Your quality becomes less of a selling point. I think it is a stupid decision to arm people with trade secrets for free.
I'm sorry, but this argument is pretty silly. Everybody is the world has access to USPCC and it is because of their reputation for quality that people use them. The design of the cards, whether it is an "fontain style repeating pattern" or an intricate Steve Minty deck, is up to the designer. The buying public will choose whatever design appeals to them, often for inexplicable reasons. However, regardless of what design they may choose, they know that the cards will be of the best quality available. The well known reputation of the USPCC inspires confidence in card buyers world wide. A secret printer does not. I want to know that I'm getting the best quality available when I pledge for a deck, rather than have to wait till they arrive to see if they suck or not.
B - I can understand if you don't want to back these cards because of the secrecy of the printer. That is completely fine. These decks are getting printed and I hope you will eventually get to feel the stock. I know most people on united cardists are barely cardists and so it makes sense to not want to put down money on something that you might not use. Either way, I'm quite certain that when you do eventually feel the deck you will like them.
This is a bit condescending, don't you think. I may not be a professional cardist but the handling of a deck is still important to me. I, unfortunately, cannot be certain that when I eventually feel the deck that I will like it because I have no idea who the printer is so I cannot compare them to anything, nor get feedback from others who have felt their product. In the end, I don't have to justify wanting a quality product whether I plan to use it to its potential or not. Quite frankly, the secrecy of the printer may indeed cause me to drop my pledge and that is on you.
C- USPCC is a good printer, but I think that there are other better printers out there. I have not heard many good things about their small run quality and I think that exploration and experimentation into new companies is a key to advancing cardistry. Look at cardistry touch and cartamundi. I have heard how the cardistry touch deck feels like a perfectly broken in deck right out of the box.
Your are mistaken. There is no better printer out there. Some people prefer certain things about the cards produced by EPCC and LPCC but they are still a distant second to USPCC. You even state that you have "heard" about the quality of Cardisty Touch and Cartamundi- don't you think it would be a good idea to actually hold some of their decks in your hand before you decide whether they are suitable for "advancing cardistry" or not? Again, you have "heard" there are problems with small print runs from USPCC. Don't you think it would be worth investigating these allegations more thoroughly?
2.) The Design
I can completely understand the comparison to the virt deck. There is no question that we are both competing in the same market and I am happy to be the underdog in this scenario. They have a full designer on staff and I'm just a guy that has never studied design in my life and make no claim to be a designer. I will say however, that I am very pleased with the design, and all the things I have written in the kickstarter I have found to be true. It may be a matter of personal opinion, but that's what design and taste all come down to any way.
Your design is fine. That is why I believe you should have confidence in it and have it printed with a known, reputable printer. I hate to be a jerk but if USPCC is good enough for the Virts, it is good enough for you. Your design is simple enough that even USPCC with all its "problems" should be able to handle it.
@rouselle the drop was actually closer to $5,000 SGD in pledges and since then I've gained back almost 3,000 in non-wholeseller pledges. Lets just say that I've sold a large majority of the thousand decks I had previously planned to print and will probably have to print more. ;)
Doesn't this invalidate your concerns about USPCC's low print run problems? You are easily going to have enough pledges to cover a full print run with USPCC. In fact, if you were to announce that you were having your cards printed with USPCC, i think you would see a surge in new pledges. I would certainly increase my pledge amount if this were the case.

I usually am not this confrontational but the defensive tone of your posting pushed a few buttons and set me off. I appreciate you presenting the reasoning behind your decisions but nothing I have seen here serves to change my opinion that this "secret printer" stuff is more about increasing your bottom line then about producing a quality cardisty product.
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Re: Isometric Playing Cards #2: Live on KS

Unread post by Kafoosh »

Hello again everyone,

I appreciate the amount of time you have spent writing these replies and will try to address points. I know some things I say may not necessarily satisfy you or your opinions, but that's the way the world is and I am happy for some discourse over my deck.

First things first, the deck I used the in pictures are MPC decks. They are the prototypes and I can understand why you would say my fanning ability is bad. I wasn't clear in telling you that and thats fine. I know this will only further the discussion "if you havent even felt your cards, then how can you say that they are good?" Rest assured, I have tried a few of their products currently on the market that you may or may not have heard of and they are of pretty good quality. I can understand most of your apprehension with buying playing cards outside of the usual USPCC, EPCC, LPCC etc.

With regards to the confidentiality of the printer, I empathize. As mostly a community of playing card collectors, you would like to know the specific stock and quality that you are getting prior to buying the deck. Unfortunately, in this case, you won't be able to. If you do not want to buy them, I completely understand where you are coming from. I enjoy trying new stocks and different things with cards as I use almost all of my collection on a constant basis.

@Sinjin, I understand the criticism of the fan design and circle, and am happy to agree to disagree. If you have any ideas that you would like to lend to the future of cardistry or isometric playing cards, hit me up. In addition, I suppose there is an element of selfishness involved in this whole matter of secrecy and I understand that people would feel offended that I am not sharing the printer. It is moreso about this selfishness and less about the profit that some people are insinuating. I appreciate the well wishes.

@Flashcards I am usually very condescending when it comes to discussing things related to cardistry. I have a long history of pissing beginners off with my comments. When I came to this thread I tried to turn it down like 10 levels, so I'm sorry if I still came off as brash. It is unfortunate that you think that way about the deck and the confidentiality surrounding my printer. I can understand why you would feel like the argument is silly or that my comments were condescending and defensive. I have full confidence as a cardist in my ability to choose a good stock for my cards. I believe that I have answered most of the questions, if not all, in my posts and the main problem here is that you do not have faith in this product. That is a reasonable assumption given that you have not tried them. I know that you have backed the campaign and I am very grateful for that. However, if my tone or my reasoning is not sound to you or you do not appreciate the way I am handling the printing of this deck, I invite you to withdraw your pledge and wait till the decks become publicly available and reviewed before purchasing them. I cannot promise that you will get them at the same price however, as Isometric No.1s, a deck not very well received in this forum 2 years ago, recently sold for $30USD opened.

Thanks everyone for being inquisitive about my deck, and as always, I will be popping in and out of this thread between making tutorials and answering emails to answer your questions.
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Re: Isometric Playing Cards #2: Live on KS

Unread post by JuFiN »

Yea but No. 1 was printed by LPCC.
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Re: Isometric Playing Cards #2: Live on KS

Unread post by Kafoosh »

My point about my personal judgement vs the judgement of certain people in these forums when it comes to card quality still stands I feel. Which was the point I was making RE: people here not liking Isometric Playing Cards No.1 2 years ago.
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Re: Isometric Playing Cards #2: Live on KS

Unread post by jerichoholic »

That is the reason for not mentioning the printer? Like no one else in the world is using the same stock and finish combo. That is a flimsy excuse. I am assuming it's Legends based on their previous deck but who knows at this point.
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Re: Isometric Playing Cards #2: Live on KS

Unread post by JuFiN »

He said he has handled other decks produced by his printer so clearly it has been done and that isn't a reason to be secretive.
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Re: Isometric Playing Cards #2: Live on KS

Unread post by flashcards »

Kafoosh,

I'll accept your invitation and withdraw my pledge. I'll save my money for the next Virts release where I'll be guaranteed to get a quality deck of cards suitable for cardistry. I usually get at least 6 decks (plus the free one they usually include) so the money I would have wasted on your unknown project will come in handy.
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Re: Isometric Playing Cards #2: Live on KS

Unread post by Kafoosh »

Flash, I don't understand your condescension towards me, but its okay that you have withdrawn your one (1) deck early bird pledge. I understand your apprehension.

If anyone else in keen, an early bird deck just popped up and is up for grabs! As usual I appreciate all your opinions about this secrecy matter, but I am not going to be altering it :)
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Re: Isometric Playing Cards #2: Live on KS

Unread post by Kafoosh »

Oops jk it was taken already.
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