!!!===== VERTEX DECK ======!!!

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Re: !!!===== VERTEX DECK ======!!!

Unread post by Mike Ratledge »

VXD wrote:Mike

Thanks for adding me to that designers group. I'm not sure exactly where / how to access it?
More a badge for identification than anything else, so everyone recognizes you as a deck artist when you contribute outside your own thread.
VXD wrote: In answer regarding the two factories.......they specialise in printing and holographic security cards and high-end packaging and I'm not at liberty to give away their contact details in any way. In true German manufacturing fashion however, they are extremely reliable and meticulous.
Makes sense, really. We're going to tour the USPCC plant at this year's 52+Joker convention in Erlanger KY, but we'll never get near the casino division. It's like a classified job for the government...
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Re: !!!===== VERTEX DECK ======!!!

Unread post by VXD »

A couple of additional photos, showing the tuck case a little better.

The tuck is made of a brushed aluminium inner shell and matte black anodised aluminium outer shell, laser engraved. Anodised aluminium is scratch-proof and extremely tough....the tuck is practically indestructible. The magnet-enabled closing mechanism and foam inner cushioning gives it the user-friendly & classy touch.
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Re: !!!===== VERTEX DECK ======!!!

Unread post by VXD »

Magik

Thanks for your comments on the project. I notice you're from Norway....I love Norway....I used to live there when I was a kid. Oslo-area. It used to snow from October to March right through, which, when you're a kid is great! (Not so these days I gather?)

Judging by your profile name, can I assume you're a cardist / magician?

The reason I ask, and this is a shout out to all cardists reading this....I am looking for a good cardist to help me film a video of VXD cards, prior to launch this spring time. I need to find someone in Germany for early April 2017 or who can travel to Germany for the filming....does anyone know of a particular cardist living in Germany that I could possibly contact for this??

Thanks in advance....
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Re: !!!===== VERTEX DECK ======!!!

Unread post by VXD »

Mike

Thanks, I see yes, re the badge system.

As you say, the general public and other clients are kept away from sensitive production areas (where avoiding copying and tampering is vital) such as casino deck production and also of course security and identity card production. The number of times I was told I couldn't take that sample away that they were showing me for reference.....I felt like a naughty child in a sweet shop at times!
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Re: !!!===== VERTEX DECK ======!!!

Unread post by vasta41 »

I cannot urge you enough to put these cards in a standard tuck case. AT LEAST make it an option. I would love to own this deck and proudly display it in my cases (see "Show Us Your Cards!" forum) but the current case you're showing will not work. In fact that might be enough to make me not pledge :( Please oh pretty please make a standard case.
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Re: !!!===== VERTEX DECK ======!!!

Unread post by VXD »

To all other members who have commented so far as well.....rousselle, JuFin, youngtomlin, Justin O, Bruno, montecarlojoe, nur1988, cardician82, joeblow, Vasta41 (and future posters)....thanks for the input and I hope my general info and update posts provide most of the answers you seek.

Vasta41....I just noticed your post....this is the second mention of this point. Noted and I will be considering the options here now further definitely. Thanks.
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Re: !!!===== VERTEX DECK ======!!!

Unread post by vasta41 »

VXD wrote:Vasta41....I just noticed your post....this is the second mention of this point. Noted and I will be considering the options here now further definitely. Thanks.
To help your decision making process, I urge you to observe this thread: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=9041&hilit=red+eye" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; A great deck of cards that tried a new, cool innovation with the tuck and ultimately didn't fund. I believe it was because of the irregular tuck but the point is even though its tuck (and yours) is unique doesn't mean the playing card collecting community by and large wants it, myself included.
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Re: !!!===== VERTEX DECK ======!!!

Unread post by VXD »

I can imagine from a pure collectors perspective this may be an issue, as regards displaying etc. So I may consider a standard paper tuck that fits within the VXD box, for the collectors.

As far as that other deck is concerned....collector or not, it looks particularly impractical I must say and would be prone to damaging very easily. The unusual look and the rest of the deck design just doesn't make up for those downsides I would suggest.
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Re: !!!===== VERTEX DECK ======!!!

Unread post by nur1988 »

VXD wrote:I can imagine from a pure collectors perspective this may be an issue, as regards displaying etc. So I may consider a standard paper tuck that fits within the VXD box, for the collectors.

As far as that other deck is concerned....collector or not, it looks particularly impractical I must say and would be prone to damaging very easily. The unusual look and the rest of the deck design just doesn't make up for those downsides I would suggest.

if you need other forms of inspiration, check out the Bicycle Prestige deck or Run Playing Cards by Jason Brumbalow
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Re: !!!===== VERTEX DECK ======!!!

Unread post by VXD »

Thanks nur

I had the Prestige Deck a couple of years ago, while I was collecting decks to study what the important characteristics are. I wasn't a fan of the thick card box to be honest...it was trying to exude luxury, but thicker card and poor printing on that card let it down. The Prestige cards themselves, while bland in design, handled really well of course though (like all Bikes) .

The Run deck is really beautiful and inspiration indeed.
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Re: !!!===== VERTEX DECK ======!!!

Unread post by sms69x »

First of all, love what I see so far! Even with standard courts this technology looks amazing! Congratulations on that! I'll pick up some decks for sure!

Second, you need to bring this technology to the custom playing cards world!! There's an endless potential on it! Imagine the JR's Legal Tender with this technology!! Thre will be no need for the problematic Holo strip! This would do the job even better!

Can't wait for this to became available!
Keep up the great work!
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Re: !!!===== VERTEX DECK ======!!!

Unread post by VXD »

sms

I must say I've been waiting for the penny to drop on this from someone. Glad to hear the positivity and excitement we're also feeling re the tech we've invented and developed.

I didn't want to give it all away, but we've already talked (here at VXD) about potentially doing cross-over decks with the likes of Jackson Robinson, T11, D&D and the all the other great deck creators out there in the future. With this tech and their incredible artwork, the classic masterpieces could be re-launched with a new edge to them.

Watch this space, perhaps... :)
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Re: !!!===== VERTEX DECK ======!!!

Unread post by Justin O. »

VXD wrote:sms

I must say I've been waiting for the penny to drop on this from someone. Glad to hear the positivity and excitement we're also feeling re the tech we've invented and developed.

I didn't want to give it all away, but we've already talked (here at VXD) about potentially doing cross-over decks with the likes of Jackson Robinson, T11, D&D and the all the other great deck creators out there in the future. With this tech and their incredible artwork, the classic masterpieces could be re-launched with a new edge to them.

Watch this space, perhaps... :)
Keep us posted about tradition tucks, many of us don't want a big, awkward bulky case increasing cost and taking up too much space, and ends up being a deal breaker for a lot of us.
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Re: !!!===== VERTEX DECK ======!!!

Unread post by VXD »

Justin

Yes, it's something we have to consider, for the display-oriented collectors particularly. I can understand the importance to re displaying your collection in an ordered / uniform way.....I collected basketball trading cards for roughly 5 years very seriously, so I fully know what thats like.

We are so incredibly pushed for time at the moment though and it will be a real stretch for us, with all the challenges of launching a brand new product. If we ever make a second deck for the collectors market, I will make sure it's on the agenda and offered as an option, certainly.
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Re: !!!===== VERTEX DECK ======!!!

Unread post by VXD »

On a positive note regarding the tuck, I do think a lot of people will really like it....the look and the materials....it's an individual eye-catching one for the mantle-piece. Plus, it will never scratch, crease or fade etc. A tuck for life. Those are the positives.
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Re: !!!===== VERTEX DECK ======!!!

Unread post by sinjin7 »

VXD wrote:I am looking for a good cardist to help me film a video of VXD cards, prior to launch this spring time. I need to find someone in Germany for early April 2017 or who can travel to Germany for the filming....does anyone know of a particular cardist living in Germany that I could possibly contact for this??

Thanks in advance....
I would recommend a cardist by the name of Julian Stiber, he lives in Germany. His user name here at UC is: Mirror. He has some videos of his work posted in the video section of this site. He used to be fairly active here, but its been several months since he's posted anything. Maybe he'll respond from a PM from you. He also has a YouTube channel (https://www.youtube.com/user/xcillusion) and you might be able to contact him there.

There are many collectors who never open their decks, and I think it would be a shame for these cards to never see the light of day. I'm glad to hear that you're giving consideration to cardists/magicians as well as collectors because that tells me two things: 1) you plan to make these decks for actual users and 2) you think you'll be able to get this technology down to a price point where it can be affordable for actual users. Let's be honest, not many people are going to regularly use decks costing in excess of $25.00 for cardistry or magic routines, or even for poker games for that matter. When USPCC came out with MetalLuxe, their initial foiled decks were strictly for collectors due to their high cost. But now less than two years later, we see Theory 11 getting under the $10 price point for their MetalLuxe deck so that the Gold Rarebit deck could actually be a user deck for cardists and magicians.

If you're serious about making a useable deck for cardists, I hope your printer in Germany is up to the task. The extreme manipulations performed by cardists, and to a lesser extent, magicians, require specific physical properties from their cards in order to handle properly. The stock should be durable and stiff, but have the ability to be broken in. It shouldn't warp much in varying levels of atmospheric humidity. And the finish of the deck should make the cards uniformly slippery. I can't tell you how many people come here and tout an unknown, or lesser known, printer and claim their cards are as good or even better than the USPCC. Invariably they fail to live up to their promises. Sourcing quality card stock seems to be a lesser problem, but getting the finish just right is where most fail. I urge you to take the humble Bicycle Rider Back deck (or even better yet, a casino-grade Bee deck) and use that as a reference point for your quality, especially in terms of the finish.

Good luck in contacting Julian/Mirror and good luck with the Vertex deck.
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Re: !!!===== VERTEX DECK ======!!!

Unread post by guru »

VXD wrote:Mike

Thanks for adding me to that designers group. I'm not sure exactly where / how to access it?

In answer regarding the two factories.......they specialise in printing and holographic security cards and high-end packaging and I'm not at liberty to give away their contact details in any way. In true German manufacturing fashion however, they are extremely reliable and meticulous.
Very nice and innovative concept..Good luck with both on & off Kickstarter, and I hope you are able to onboard Casinos on this concept. Regarding printers from Germany, I know and have seen work of 3 top printers there , and can vouch that the samples provided, along with the communication etc. were top notch. The only issue I had was shipping from Germany to other regions. Since you are planning to get this deck on Kickstarter, I hope you will give good thought towards shipping & fulfillment. Majority of playing card backers on Kickstarter are from US, so you'd need to get a strong value proposition towards the potential majority (shipping rate is one major consideration). Do look at all possible shipping & fulfillment options. If thinking of doing Fulfillment from Germany itself, Amazon.de, Happyshops, Logistico, Sendwich Logistics are the few top options. Hope that helps.
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Re: !!!===== VERTEX DECK ======!!!

Unread post by VXD »

Thank you very much for your mail sinjin...it's seriously appreciated. Very very helpful.

I have checked out Julian Stiber on YouTube and some of the other cardists he has 'jammed' with on YouTube as well. I will try and PM him.

I'm very glad I decided to come on here. Speaking to people here who are experienced in all aspects of playing cards and viewing things from different angles.....cardists, magicians, collectors, designers.....each have different priorities with playing cards. Gathering the tips from all these angles will help us make this deck one of the best ever produced hopefully.

My only minor regret here in my posts was stating that our quality is 'second to none' (as pointed out by Magik too). USPCC and other manufacturers have done a fantastic job over the years achieving best handling, consistency in quality and also reductions in cost (through process optimisation and / or high production volumes). As you say, Bicycle set the bar on these factors, no doubt.

Over the last decade or so, hot foil printing on the backs of playing cards became the way to set your deck apart in the looks department and currently most of the 'high-end' / 'luxury' decks incorporate foil stamping somewhere. When aesthetic boundaries get pushed, the inevitable compromises occur in the handling. Over time these compromises are managed down to a point where most playing card users are happy. The industry is pretty much there now with the foil step.

I believe there is a fair chance now that VXD is the next big step in the industry. I do think it will revolutionise playing cards in the years to come. For years the backs have been getting the full pampered treatment and there's just one card back in the deck. Playing cards are really, in my humble opinion, 99% about the card fronts. This is where the action takes place and where people fix their eyes when playing all kinds of card games all over the world. I think the fronts deserve some real love in the looks department. I hope people appreciate that VXD was invented for this purpose. It should become clear.

We have worked tirelessly for 7/8 years now designing and testing ways to achieve the best result when combining the standard playing card production with our new VXD layer added into the mix. It has thrown up a whole new set of problems to tackle, hence the long long time spent in development (that and the patent process that ran alongside). I'm not going to say it will be perfect in the first ever release of this type of deck....but I can say, we are perfectionists and dedicated and are leaving no stone unturned to get it right...for cardists and magicians, for collectors who want to display it, casinos and their patrons, home poker players etc etc. I have given up my 15-year job as a professional bridge design engineer in the UK to tackle these playing cards on a technical level with the factories and my colleague is an exceptional graphic designer and artist, who is just about to go full time on the VXD project too and quit his day job for good too. We've spent every penny we have on it. We're 'all-in' to use a poker term.

While I would of course be very happy if the upcoming KS campaign was a success, it will actually have no effect on whether or how we pursue our ambitions and dreams with VXD. It will happen anyway...we just will be temporarily slowed down I think through lack of funds and the collectors edition would be put on hold temporarily until we found investment. I may talk more in depth re the casino side of the VXD project in future here, but this would certainly go on and is currently looking very promising.

Ok, big info / update post there....back to the job at hand now.

Thanks again sinjin for the contact info and the considered post :)
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Re: !!!===== VERTEX DECK ======!!!

Unread post by VXD »

Hi Guru

I was typing while you posted, so got out of order / sync there.

Thanks for the encouraging words. Yes, I'm extremely happy with the level of effort and consideration the two German factories are putting into this. They take serious pride in what they produce and just don't allow a product out their factory doors without it being right. Work continues.

Regarding the fulfilment and shipping....I have arranged to use a warehouse in N. Carolina for the fulfilment. It's a friend of a friends warehouse and have come highly recommended. This friend sends a lot of his own product out from there and has always had really good service from them. That should work well I'm sure. We ship from Germany to the NC warehouse and it will all be very secure, I'm assured by the factory doing the shipping.
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Re: !!!===== VERTEX DECK ======!!!

Unread post by vasta41 »

VXD wrote:We are so incredibly pushed for time at the moment though and it will be a real stretch for us, with all the challenges of launching a brand new product. If we ever make a second deck for the collectors market, I will make sure it's on the agenda and offered as an option, certainly.
I am extremely saddened to hear this. I'll say it right now- if this deck isn't offered in a standard-sized tuck case then I won't be pledging for it. And I'm sure I won't be alone. Please understand that I'm not threatening you or anything like that, I just have no business in my collection for a case like this. It would be a damn shame if a normal tuck isn't offered. A damn shame...
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Re: !!!===== VERTEX DECK ======!!!

Unread post by VXD »

Vasta

No worries, I understand re your requirements.

I discussed it about 2 hours ago with my colleague and am happy to report....we are going to make an option of a deck with a traditional tuck for the VXD KS launch. I'll just add that to the long list. It had to be done at some point I think anyway.

Now, I better be off to the supermarket to buy that crate of Red Bull...
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Re: !!!===== VERTEX DECK ======!!!

Unread post by MagikFingerz »

Would be awesome if you have separate shipping options for Europeans (and possibly elsewhere in the world), as the US Postal Service has become increasingly expensive over the past few years. Assuming shipping would be comparatively cheaper from Germany to Europe, of course.
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Re: !!!===== VERTEX DECK ======!!!

Unread post by VXD »

Magik

Eventually that would be ideal certainly.

With the relatively small numbers we can produce for this first ever edition, the work involved in arranging two shipping / distribution points (one in US, one in Europe) will not provide us additional efficiency. This time everything will likely be sent out to backers from the North Carolina warehouse.
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Re: !!!===== VERTEX DECK ======!!!

Unread post by shermjack »

VXD wrote: I discussed it about 2 hours ago with my colleague and am happy to report....we are going to make an option of a deck with a traditional tuck for the VXD KS launch. I'll just add that to the long list. It had to be done at some point I think anyway.
This is very good news and will be backing for a couple of each at launch! :ugdance:
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Re: !!!===== VERTEX DECK ======!!!

Unread post by PrincessTrouble »

shermjack wrote:
VXD wrote: I discussed it about 2 hours ago with my colleague and am happy to report....we are going to make an option of a deck with a traditional tuck for the VXD KS launch. I'll just add that to the long list. It had to be done at some point I think anyway.
This is very good news and will be backing for a couple of each at launch! :ugdance:
Ditto. The oddly shaped box stopped me from backing the Red Eyes. Happy to hear a standard shaped tuck will be an option with these.
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Re: !!!===== VERTEX DECK ======!!!

Unread post by RichK »

PrincessTrouble wrote:
shermjack wrote:
VXD wrote: I discussed it about 2 hours ago with my colleague and am happy to report....we are going to make an option of a deck with a traditional tuck for the VXD KS launch. I'll just add that to the long list. It had to be done at some point I think anyway.
This is very good news and will be backing for a couple of each at launch! :ugdance:
Ditto. The oddly shaped box stopped me from backing the Red Eyes. Happy to hear a standard shaped tuck will be an option with these.
Count me in!

Red Eyes did have a standard tuck too but added it later in their campaign which was too late. They should have done both tuck options at the start to possibly succeed.
Move on, nothing to see here.
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Re: !!!===== VERTEX DECK ======!!!

Unread post by VXD »

Thanks all (re recent posts on tuck option).

Just noticed the 'Thanks' button too on here...must use that in future.

I have a question for anyone that has been here a long time and can make a good guess....just wondering what you estimate is the proportion of collectors & cardists on here % wise. I.e would you say 60% collectors, 40% cardists etc ???

Pressing the 'Thanks' button in advance...
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Re: !!!===== VERTEX DECK ======!!!

Unread post by sms69x »

I would say that we have 90-100% collectors here!
And of those maybe 20-30% are cardists.
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Unread post by VXD »

Thanks button deployed.
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Re: !!!===== VERTEX DECK ======!!!

Unread post by MagikFingerz »

I agree with sms69x. There's definitely some overlap, I'm sure close to everyone here is a collector in one way or another. But, of course, there are several different types of collectors; those who don't open their decks and those who do, just to mention one distinction.
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