Branle Tesoro now shipping (NPCC)

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Re: Branle Tesoro coming to Kickstarter (NPCC)

Unread post by jerichoholic »

sinjin7 wrote:
Azid wrote:The funding goal is just 500$ to produce 100 decks? Interesting that they need to sell only 7 decks to get this funded.
NPCC should print more then 20 of this beauties to make it cheaper and available for more people.
This is the problem with people using Kickstarter these days. This is obviously not a situation where a company needs capitol to give them the boost to make their product a reality, but rather a manipulation of Kickstarter's built-in marketing reach to make a quick buck. Seriously, if you, as a company, are so tight that you don't have even the $500.00 to finance a project, you shouldn't be in business. This funding goal is a complete sham, as is the intentional artificial rarity of this deck.

I would have a lot more respect for this campaign if they produced 2000 standard dual colored foil backed cards priced at $35.00 per deck with an $8,000.00 funding goal, with 100 ultra-limited edition decks with fake jewels glued onto extra-fancy tucks available for those who love to throw money at blingy tucks.

Or even if they had the balls to stay off Kickstarter and self-fund 100 decks at the $75.00 price point and sell the decks themselves (saving the 10% KS fees) and ship them out as soon as we buy them.
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Re: Branle Tesoro coming to Kickstarter (NPCC)

Unread post by sms69x »

Sinjin just nailed it. How can any company not have $500 to produce a deck? KS is opening the door for the lazy business man. Guess that nowadays anyone can be a "business" man, just put it on KS, if it sticks then produce it if not, well it was worth the try!

I would just like to add, since their decks handle very poorly, maybe this is a way for them to go... Just do limited decks that noone will use for anything other than look at, and you may get your space in the business....
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Re: Branle Tesoro coming to Kickstarter (NPCC)

Unread post by MagikFingerz »

sms69x wrote:KS is opening the door for the lazy business man.
That door has been open for a long time. KS projects all fit on what I call a genuine-lazy spectrum. There's everything from the actual fundraising for new and innovative products, to established producers not wanting to let go (e.g. KW), to this project, to the straight up pre-orders. It's up to each of us to decide where we draw the line, because KS sure as hell doesn't care as long as they get their cut.
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Re: Branle Tesoro coming to Kickstarter (NPCC)

Unread post by NoirArts »

Hello friends
First of all, thank you for your interest on this deck.
Now, because of many questions regarding this project, let me make everything clear:
It was designed for Kickstarter make/100. Besides that, those decks are complex in every aspect of production, which requires tremendous amount of time – from tucks and to cards itself (double foils on cards backs = double production time = double cost). Producing 500 or 1000 decks will not help to bring price down, as every technological process has its own cost, and just don’t scale.
Branle Tesoro is our technological statement, experiment (will it become popular/desired deck?), example what we are capable of, if you want. We had no intensions to make it mass produced deck. Some of the features will be used in our next projects, some may not. Only thing I can tell for sure – we will continue to work and do our best to bring new cool stuff, new experience for the community.

-Roman
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Re: Branle Tesoro coming to Kickstarter (NPCC)

Unread post by rorschach »

Might be a good idea for this campaign to offer a cheaper add-on deck without all the bells and whistles?

The cards may very well be amazing, but at the rarity and price nobody is going to open the deck to appreciate them.
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Re: Branle Tesoro coming to Kickstarter (NPCC)

Unread post by RichK »

rorschach wrote:Might be a good idea for this campaign to offer a cheaper add-on deck without all the bells and whistles?

The cards may very well be amazing, but at the rarity and price nobody is going to open the deck to appreciate them.
Roman (Noir Arts) said the band will be openable and the seal will be on the band. No seal to stop you from opening the box. Band, in theory, is recloseable. Slot A tab B kind of thing.
Move on, nothing to see here.
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Re: Branle Tesoro coming to Kickstarter (NPCC)

Unread post by Räpylätassu »

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Re: Branle Tesoro coming to Kickstarter (NPCC)

Unread post by NoirArts »

sinjin7 wrote: I would have a lot more respect for this campaign if they produced 2000 standard dual colored foil backed cards priced at $35.00 per deck with an $8,000.00 funding goal, with 100 ultra-limited edition decks with fake jewels glued onto extra-fancy tucks available for those who love to throw money at blingy tucks.
First of all, don't be ignorant in your statements and read carefully before you say something. Those are synthetic (!) jewels. Not fake, not imitation. SYN-THE-TIC. You can gooogle it, or read project description

Second, it up to us how and how many decks to produce.

Third: this campaign is for only "ultra limited" decks. And as I stated in my previous post, it is a proof of what we are capable of. Cannot say for sure, but we have plans to produce deck with foiled backs, not that limited

If you don't like it - don't support. There are a lot of people who likes it and who will appreciate these decks in collection. Simple.
sms69x wrote:I would just like to add, since their decks handle very poorly, maybe this is a way for them to go... Just do limited decks that noone will use for anything other than look at, and you may get your space in the business....
Everybody knows that you hate everything we do. The only thing that remains a mistery to me - what is your problem? why you keep posting your "expert opinion" on subjects, you are not interested in? I personally don't give any attention to decks I don't like
rorschach wrote:Might be a good idea for this campaign to offer a cheaper add-on deck without all the bells and whistles?
Good question. Yes, we are planning to introduce more traditional deck with foiled backs

Like I said before, Branle Tesoro is our technological statement, experiment (will it become popular/desired deck?), example what we are capable of, if you want. We had no intensions to make it mass produced deck. Some of the features will be used in our next projects, some may not.

best,
Roman
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Re: Branle Tesoro coming to Kickstarter (NPCC)

Unread post by sinjin7 »

NoirArts wrote:
sinjin7 wrote: I would have a lot more respect for this campaign if they produced 2000 standard dual colored foil backed cards priced at $35.00 per deck with an $8,000.00 funding goal, with 100 ultra-limited edition decks with fake jewels glued onto extra-fancy tucks available for those who love to throw money at blingy tucks.
First of all, don't be ignorant in your statements and read carefully before you say something. Those are synthetic (!) jewels. Not fake, not imitation. SYN-THE-TIC. You can gooogle it, or read project description

Second, it up to us how and how many decks to produce.

Third: this campaign is for only "ultra limited" decks. And as I stated in my previous post, it is a proof of what we are capable of. Cannot say for sure, but we have plans to produce deck with foiled backs, not that limited

If you don't like it - don't support. There are a lot of people who likes it and who will appreciate these decks in collection. Simple.
First of all, I assure you I always read carefully before I make any posts here at UC. These are synthetic (!) jewels, not real, merely imitation. F-A-K-E. To me, a synthetic jewel is a fake jewel, in that neither are natural or real. If you go to Tiffany's and try to hype up the value of a SYN-THE-TIC diamond compared to a real diamond, then you'll get laughed out of the store like the ignoramus that you would be. But I'm not going to get caught up with semantics with you. If you prefer to use the term SYN-THE-TIC because it makes you feel better as opposed to the synonymous term, F-A-K-E, that's your prerogative, but it doesn't change the fact that none of your jewels are real.
PO-TAY-TO, PO-TAH-TO.

For me, it comes down to this: Why are you even on Kickstarter? Surely you don't need the $500 to get started. Why not actually produce your 100 decks first, and then sell them to your customers when they are immediately availale? This way people don't have to wait 4+ months after they pay before finally getting their decks, and you don't have to give Kickstarter their cut. When I see people or established companies (ab)using Kickstarter as a crutch when they don't have to, it makes me suspect they are more about placing their own convenience ahead of the convenience of their customers.

As to your final point about not buying if I don't like - DONE! This may be the only thing we'll agree upon.
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Re: Branle Tesoro coming to Kickstarter (NPCC)

Unread post by NoirArts »

sinjin7 wrote: First of all, I assure you I always read carefully before I make any posts here at UC. These are synthetic (!) jewels, not real, merely imitation. F-A-K-E. To me, a synthetic jewel is a fake jewel, in that neither are natural or real.
Right, "to you". For everyone else, who is analyzing information prior making any conclusions or statements - it is not.

It is important to distinguish between synthetic gemstones, and imitation or simulated gems.
Synthetic gems are physically, optically and chemically identical to the natural stone, but are created in controlled conditions in a laboratory. Imitation or simulated stones are chemically different than the natural stone but may be optically similar to it; they can be glass, plastic, resins or other compounds.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gemstone# ... _gemstones

sinjin7 wrote:For me, it comes down to this: Why are you even on Kickstarter? Surely you don't need the $500 to get started. Why not actually produce your 100 decks first, and then sell them to your customers when they are immediately availale? This way people don't have to wait 4+ months after they pay before finally getting their decks, and you don't have to give Kickstarter their cut. When I see people or established companies (ab)using Kickstarter as a crutch when they don't have to, it makes me suspect they are more about placing their own convenience ahead of the convenience of their customers.
Backers won't have to wait 4+months to receive these decks. We've started Kickstarter campaign so people could find these decks and support. Not because of money, but because of introduction and support. Branle Tesoro won't be produced UNLESS we gain enough supporters. That's the main idea of this project and Kickstarter overall.
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Re: Branle Tesoro coming to Kickstarter (NPCC)

Unread post by sms69x »

So synthetic are different than imitations but still FAKE, I think we get the idea.. If you feel that calling it synthetic will make your deck better, then lets call it synthetic.
NoirArts wrote: Backers won't have to wait 4+months to receive these decks. We've started Kickstarter campaign so people could find these decks and support. Not because of money, but because of introduction and support. Branle Tesoro won't be produced UNLESS we gain enough supporters. That's the main idea of this project and Kickstarter overall
So how many backers you need to produce the deck. Are the 30+ right now enough?
Your justification to use KS makes no sense.. Guess the risk zero has a big weight in a company like yours...

You should improve in your decks handling instead of doing this type of things. Artificial rarety, synthetic gems... Congratulation on the foil though. hope it will be good enough and doesn't show through the face of the cards.
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Re: Branle Tesoro coming to Kickstarter (NPCC)

Unread post by Mike Ratledge »

Guys, enough trolling the artist here. Although we might agree that it is odd, it's just not unusual.
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Re: Branle Tesoro coming to Kickstarter (NPCC)

Unread post by JuFiN »

there isn't even any discount for buying all 5 decks....

Ima try to keep my thoughts quick here,
With a funding goal of $500 its clear they are just using kickstarter to advertise which feels a bit wrong to me. Either that or these decks cost them 5 dollars to produce which makes $75 a deck seem a bit extreme. And as always I'm against artificial rarity on the whole, rubs me the wrong way creating just 100 of something seemingly for the sole purpose of increasing the price.

Yes its double foil and I am a huge sucker for foil, but the choice of color on the backs isnt good and the printing quality isnt good, with this in mind the price is way too high. As always NPCC manages to get nice artwork on the front but after backing a few of their decks and seeing how they handle unless the art really wows me I promised myself I wouldn't back anymore. This deck is making it easy to keep that promise so far.

As far as fake or synthetic gems on the tucks I think all that has done is distract us from the issue that the tucks don't look good.
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Re: Branle Tesoro coming to Kickstarter (NPCC)

Unread post by montecarlojoe »

Regarding the synthetic vs fake I would have to side with NoirArts here (thought he defensive tone surely doesn't help you).

Synthetic stones are identical in any way that matters to natural stones. In fact synthetic stones are often superior in clarity and purity, and colour can be finely controlled - which is why you'll never see natural stones used for scientific purposes. (e.g. optics)

The only real difference is marketing - once comes from a lab, and another comes from the ground (and more often than not dug up under near slave labour conditions). Quite why the latter should be more real or worth more to anyone is quite beyond me.

Regarding my opinion of the deck.. I do like the cards and the backs. The dual foil and design appeal to me quite a lot, but I also agree that the Red/Gold does look better with the apparent dark background - I don't think that the image was meant to be deliberately misleading in any way and was meant to use shadow to accent the shiny. (Some will see shadow, some will see a dark stock - Kinda reminds me of the blue/gold dress!)

As you probably worked out from the above - the addition of the gemstone doesn't really sway me one way or another - and the tucks seem a little plain if I'm honest. Some laser cut "lace work" perhaps matching the card pattern on the tuck band would do wonders.

Personally I don't mind the 'artificial' rareness aspect - They ARE rare because there wont be many. you either want them or you don't.
I may try for one depending how my budget looks - if it had been on darker stock then the Red/Gold would have been the one for me. As it is I might pledge for the holographic foil version.

I like them. but the criticism was valid - as was the substantive part of the response - but Mike's right - we all need to watch the tone. /mod ;)
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Re: Branle Tesoro coming to Kickstarter (NPCC)

Unread post by NoirArts »

JuFiN wrote:there isn't even any discount for buying all 5 decks....

Ima try to keep my thoughts quick here,
With a funding goal of $500 its clear they are just using kickstarter to advertise which feels a bit wrong to me. Either that or these decks cost them 5 dollars to produce which makes $75 a deck seem a bit extreme. And as always I'm against artificial rarity on the whole, rubs me the wrong way creating just 100 of something seemingly for the sole purpose of increasing the price.

Yes its double foil and I am a huge sucker for foil, but the choice of color on the backs isnt good and the printing quality isnt good, with this in mind the price is way too high. As always NPCC manages to get nice artwork on the front but after backing a few of their decks and seeing how they handle unless the art really wows me I promised myself I wouldn't back anymore. This deck is making it easy to keep that promise so far.

As far as fake or synthetic gems on the tucks I think all that has done is distract us from the issue that the tucks don't look good.
There is NO purpose of artificial rarity. This project is:
- designed to fit Kickstarter make/100
- amount of time for production is TREMENDOUS
- it has firs-ever-used features for us. Like double foils on the back. Before running big campaigns we have to make sure that everything is doable, that we can actually execute it good enough, in reasonable time frame. Go small scale before offering bigger projects

the printing quality isnt good
Excuse me, but you are absolutely ignorant in printing. That being said, I don't find reasonable to explain or even comment such ridiculous statements from people like you.
I wouldn't back anymore.
Thanks! I would also appreciate if you leave this topic for people who has to say anything valuable for project and community.
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Re: Branle Tesoro coming to Kickstarter (NPCC)

Unread post by rousselle »

Anybody who is familiar with gems knows that synthetic is not the same as fake; they are a less expensive way to produce the same result. And, as has been noted, there's also the political appeal of avoiding slave labor and supporting problematic military regimes.

That said, when I'm buying playing cards, I'm not quiiiite as interested in purchasing gems along with them. I really like the way these cards look, and would love to get my hands on one of each. Well... two of each, since I like to open one and keep one :-). It doesn't bother me that they are using KS to gauge interest. And, having dealt with Roman on a couple of occasions outside of standard Kickstarter transactions, I have always found him to be reasonable and above board.

For me, the deciding factor simply comes down to price. It's just too rich for my blood at this time. That said, if future editions with the double-foil treatment become available at a lower price, I'm definitely going to be interested. As I've stated many times elsewhere, I loves me some shiny.

Mike Ratledge said:
Although we might agree that it is odd, it's just not unusual.
This is what's known as the "Tom Jones defense."

Ba-dum-tsss.
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Re: Branle Tesoro coming to Kickstarter (NPCC)

Unread post by JuFiN »

Apparently I was confused and thought this was a forum to discuss our thoughts on cards but apparently it's a place to circle jerk about how great all decks are. And then throw out defensive personal attacks at people who share negative points of view.

All I know about print quality is that I own multiple decks from LPCC EPCC USPCC and NPCC and NPCC simply doesn't handle as well.

My final thought, double foil is awesome but I will hold off on pledging $75 until after you are sure it's doable, I wouldn't want to pay $375 for 5 decks and then find out that double foil isn't something you can even do.
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Re: Branle Tesoro coming to Kickstarter (NPCC) (wap)

Unread post by Cbkimble »

NoirArts/JuFin this is a place to express your opinion. With that said, we still need to be civil with how we word opinions and how we respond to those opinions. You've both made responses that could lead to problems. I'm asking you both now to please not let those comments escalate. Thank you.
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Re: Branle Tesoro coming to Kickstarter (NPCC)

Unread post by shaitani »

Just another voice here:
I never open decks (particularly expensive ones), I pretty much just collect to show off the outer appearance.
That said, I HATE the tuck box for this project, but I LOVE the double foil backs. And honestly, I feel like we do have enough gold/red on black backs, it's a little refreshing to see foil on white backs.
Anyway, the price point for something I can't display is enough to keep me out of a pledge.

Now, regarding the Kickstarter project and the peculiarities of using it as a platform like this, even though this project goes against the spirit of Kickstarter, I'm fine with it. Think about it from the point of view of the creator. They don't want to spend all this crazy effort making a 100 of these and then find out no one cares. So, they dip their toes in with Kickstarter and basically ask people who are interested to commit to buying some if they are made. They likely set the goal to $500 so that most early bird buyers would be confident that this was going to be made. That gets the first round of people in, and that drives interest enough for the remaining stock. But I digress, because regardless of the reasoning, I see nothing wrong with this process. Kickstarter is a tool to get commitments for funding projects, regardless of how much money the creator has in their bank account.
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Re: Branle Tesoro coming to Kickstarter (NPCC)

Unread post by jsantafe »

As it seems there hasn't been enough opinions thrown in this topic, I'll add my invaluable one :ugthink:

I agree with shaitani in the Kickstarter part. It's a tool, marketing tool that can be used, within it's rules (and, in the light of recent projects, even stretching those) the way the project creators want. eBay was meant for auctions and now it's a global marketplace. It's not a philosophy or cult or a club, it's a company and a website that clearly fills very different needs for producers: marketing tool, pre-sales marketplace, financing aid, market research, field test etc. Is it crowdfunding? Maybe not only that. Who really cares? It gets the decks coming and it's mostly positive. CPC, Ellusionit, even Pebble! used it to launch products.

As for the NPCC debate here, I won't enter the quality debate. I just want to point something out: I want to thank Roman for his constant commitment with this community even against critics, and his willingness to participate in this forum. I won't ignore it's also in his benefit, but it's not uncommon at all to have creators leave after the first critic or not even ever show up here.

There were out of tone comments in both ends, but I still think we all benefit from having creators AND PRODUCERS around here.
JS

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Re: Branle Tesoro coming to Kickstarter (NPCC)

Unread post by Bruno »

..... now comes the time.

Thanks to montecarlojoe, rousselle, cbkimble, shaitani and jsantafe ....
and NoirArts 'course.
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yet laugh at your contempts ....
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Re: Branle Tesoro coming to Kickstarter (NPCC)

Unread post by Räpylätassu »

Just got my Branle Tesoro. Quick thoughts:

1. NPCC once again knocked the tuck box out of the park. Amazing tuck.

2. Foiling does not get through the paper from the other side. I tried to see if it shows through the front even a little bit, but no, it does not show through the front at all. Great work!

3. The foiling looks great, but I would have liked the back to be in off-white color.

4. Compared to my original Branle deck my one handed fans with this one are pretty much the same. They feel slightly different because I believe that this one has a chemical coating but still they fan pretty similary in my one handed fans.

5. Like with all of my NPCC decks, slight clumps with fanning right out of the box that disappeared after about 1 minute of fanning and a couple of springs.

Great work, I like it. Now, that Pokemon Gold on my Gameboy won't play itself...
Left my heart in SIERRA MADRE

"Finding it... that's not the hard part. It's letting go."

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Are lobsters mermaids to scorpions?

"I did not hit her, it's not true, it's bullsh*t, I did not hit her, I did naaaht! Oh hai Mark!"

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