Origins - Shadows of History by Rick Davidson

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Re: Origins - Shadows of History by Rick Davidson

Unread post by Gareth »

Update (#9) from Rick just come out.

A quick summary;
  • Rouen deck now going LPCC (was USPCC)
  • Black Label Deck available for $92 ($65USD) from 5am ET (9am GMT) - less than 90 minutes.
To me looks like a quick cash grab, as Mike sort of suggested. (Presumably moving the LPCC gives a bit more wiggle room in the budget for the Black decks).

BTW: 1 Early Bird Brick now available (thanks for making my finances easier Rick!). :-)
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Re: Origins - Shadows of History by Rick Davidson

Unread post by sinjin7 »

I have to say I'm not happy about the change to LPCC on the Rouen deck, now we're likely to see fulfillment delayed waiting on the Taiwanese/Chinese printer, in addition to having the Rouen deck warp on you once you open it. I guess you have to do what you have to do to try to get funded. There's no question about the art and design, this deck should've easily funded and then some. But I think this project was mismanaged in that it wasn't properly promoted right from the start. Now it just feels like desperate scrambling at the end, hopefully it won't be a case of too little too late.
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Re: Origins - Shadows of History by Rick Davidson

Unread post by sms69x »

This is a very poor move from Rick... (I would prefer that he cancel the campaign than doing this money grab..)

So in order to get this funded he just goes with the flow of everyone else and just throws in a fancy tuck to get this funded.... very bad played..
Also going with LPCC for the Rouen deck kills it for me... I will most likely drop my pledge... As by the way this is looking this deck is going to barely fund and I guess we will be able to get these in the after market for a even better deal...

This one has the potential for the best deck of the year, but if we got the "Worst KS campaign" category I guess this one could win too...
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Re: Origins - Shadows of History by Rick Davidson

Unread post by shermjack »

Wow! I can't believe all the negativity just because Rick added an additional limited deck (which he said he would be doing) and switched one of the decks from USPCC to LPCC.

I don't recall anyone complaining when Lorenzo offered his Limited Decks for No 17 or Le Chat Rouge, which were also tuck swaps. Nor do I understand how this can be a money grab. Just like Rick explained, as with Lorenzo's decks also, there are extra expenses incurred in making these limited decks (including having to have the decks sent to NZ, then Rick's time in making each tuck and then sending them back out). With shipping costs these days, I don't see how Rick could make that much money off of these.

As for worst run campaign, that's a little harsh, don't you think? I am sure that Rick tried his best to attract more backers, but despite his best efforts he is a little short of his goal, so like all other project creators, he offered another add-on (which again, he talked about a couple weeks ago) to try and get the project funded. How does that make it a bad campaign? What other reasons are there for this being such a bad campaign?

In regards to the switch from USPCC to LPCC for the Rouen deck, I guess I can understand the disgruntlement from some, but again, it is not the end of the world as LPCC still produces excellent decks. Plus the fact that many of my USPCC decks have the click bend as well, there is no guarantee with either company in the deck will be click bend free. Maybe Rick will offer tiers that have only multiple Bicycle decks so you can still get them without getting the LPCC deck...won't hurt to ask.

In the end, you have a choice of which decks to back or not back and you can express your opinion by how you pledge, but I really don't think that Rick's move deserves such harsh treatment for trying to get his project funded and produced within his budget.
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Re: Origins - Shadows of History by Rick Davidson

Unread post by vasta41 »

I am also not happy about the change in printers. But the way I see it (and the way I've ALWAYS seen it with any project in KS), a creator has two options when faced with a campaign that might not fund: sacrifice the "bells and whistles" to lower the funding goal and in turn the production costs while having the "it's better to have my deck created without the bling than to not have it created at all" attitude. OR make no sacrifices and stay the course with the "I'd rather not see my deck created than sacrifice my initial vision" attitude. As much as I love USPCC printing, I personally think what good is USPCC printing if the deck can't be created? I'd rather see LPCC print a deck than have no deck at all.
As for the money grab I would normally agree with that if the project were already funded. But the fact that the project isn't funded yet makes me believe that Rick is just trying to do anything he can to get these decks funded. And I don't know how anyone could fault him for that. JR does these money grabs after the project is already 150% funded. Screw that. This is not that (that I can see).
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Re: Origins - Shadows of History by Rick Davidson

Unread post by badpete69 »

Wow. When you stop collecting you get out of touch quick... There's a black deck? :shock:
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Re: Origins - Shadows of History by Rick Davidson

Unread post by rousselle »

A limited edition, spiffed out black tuck. Looks very nice. Just announced in the wee hours this morning. $65 add-on, I think. Did you not back Origins - Shadows of History?

Tsk.
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Re: Origins - Shadows of History by Rick Davidson

Unread post by badpete69 »

I did but i do not read any updates and barely make it here
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Re: Origins - Shadows of History by Rick Davidson

Unread post by ecNate »

Reminder, he's only stating he MAY switch to Legends, but will consider staying with USPCC if the funding level is high enough. Given that as of this moment we are now at $24,135 of $24,645 goal in USD with 5 days to go I think there's a good chance of that happening. Especially if those that may have bailed come back. There was a HUGE increase because of new deck I'm sure. Possibly some 'self-funded' efforts as well, but I'm totally OK with that given it's Rick and not some shady person.

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Re: Origins - Shadows of History by Rick Davidson

Unread post by Bikefanatic »

I'm the guy that doesn't care which of the top 3 companies make the decks when funded. My mind's occupied on other things until the decks are delivered. I rather wait when things are done completely right instead of it being rushed or not the actual product promised.

On the original Origins thread I think I mentioned about seeing a maroon tuck in the future. Looks like that will come true (Rouen deck).
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Re: Origins - Shadows of History by Rick Davidson

Unread post by Talisman »

Bikefanatic wrote:I'm the guy that doesn't care which of the top 3 companies make the decks when funded. My mind's occupied on other things until the decks are delivered. I rather wait when things are done completely right instead of it being rushed or not the actual product promised.
+1
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Re: Origins - Shadows of History by Rick Davidson

Unread post by Bikefanatic »

I didn't pledge for the Black Label. I'm sure the final product will look great but some reason it's not jumping out at me though I can change my mind.

I don't mind extra or special decks but those are another reason delivery could be delayed by sending all the decks made by different companies together though I know it's best for keeping shipping cost low. I can wait.
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Re: Origins - Shadows of History by Rick Davidson

Unread post by Gareth »

ecNate wrote:Reminder, he's only stating he MAY switch to Legends, but will consider staying with USPCC if the funding level is high enough.
Interestingly, we've just discovered that the updates can be edited. The update e-mail that I received says
As part of the adjustments to the campaign I have reassigned the production of the Rouen 1567 deck to the Legends Playing Card Co. who did amazing jobs of my last two decks in the JP Games LUXX series (check them out). The option to print with the USPCC remains an option if funded ...
The current wording on KS sounds quite different, which says
As part of the adjustments to the campaign, for the Rouen 1567 deck only, I will select between the USPCC and the Legends Playing Card Co. who did amazing jobs of my last two decks in the JP Games LUXX series (check them out)
As I started this little bunfight, I should address;
vasta41 wrote: ... a creator has two options when faced with a campaign that might not fund: sacrifice the "bells and whistles" to lower the funding goal and in turn the production costs while having the "it's better to have my deck created without the bling than to not have it created at all" attitude. OR make no sacrifices and stay the course with the "I'd rather not see my deck created than sacrifice my initial vision" attitude....
Nothing you said is wrong, except of course the creator can't change the goal after the campaign has started. They can only change what you're going to get for the money you pledge. By reducing his costs (printing with LPCC), Rick has reduced the value of the pledges in my opinion (others, undoubtedly disagree), and therefore I altered what I was willing to pay.

Don't get be wrong, it's not like Rick suddenly moved production to MPC or NPCC... However, I do find that some creators appear quite liberal with what some may find quite material changes to their project.

This project has reached the goal now. (undoubtedly 100 x $92 - if all the limited decks sold - would easily make this fund).. it will be interesting to see what happens from now.
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Re: Origins - Shadows of History by Rick Davidson

Unread post by sinjin7 »

I don't mind that Rick came out with an "ultra-limited" edition that is merely a tuck swap. I get that there are a lot of collectors out there that are basically tuck box collectors since they never open their decks, so they don't care if the cards inside their blinged out tucks are identical to the standard editions, or even printed by a crappier printer for that matter. As its been mentioned, I'm not forced to buy it, and I usually don't. For me, an exclusive "limited" edition should be differentiated by the cards inside as well as a blinged out tuck. I have no problems buying those for the collection. But there is obviously a market for those tuck box collectors, so it makes real-world economic sense to cater to them as well, especially if they're easily parted with a lot of their money for just a fancy tuck.

My issue with the limited edition is actually that he didn't offer them from the start so that his project could've started off with a bigger bang and had more momentum from the start. This is part of the project mismanagement I was referring to, in addition to not promoting and marketing this deck in a more aggressive manner. Rick's original Origins decks are some of my most favorite decks in my collection, and I really wanted to see these decks blow past it's funding goal as fast as possible so that we could entertain the possibility of stretch goals such as MetalLuxe. Instead, it looks like this project is going to just barely fund in its final days, which is a shame for its missed potential.

As for the switch in printers, when KS project creators do that in the middle or towards the end of their campaigns (or God forbid, after the campaign has ended), it always smells and tastes like a bait and switch to me. (Granted, this is nothing like the bait and switch that Jackson pulled on us with his Legal Tender campaign where he promised holographic foiling and charged accordingly, and then after the campaign ends he decides not to use holographic foil, or any foil at all, and then used the Chinese printer instead of the Taiwanese printer to boot.) And I know some people are big enough fans of LPCC that they actually prefer it over the USPCC so they don't mind. But for me, and many others, it would be a disappointment to see a printer switch. When I first read the Update, I got the impression that Rick was definitely switching to the Taiwanese (Chinese?) printer, but I'm glad to see that he still may stay with the USPCC. In my opinion, keeping everything with the USPCC will result in better quality, consistency across both versions, and faster fulfillment so I hope that will be the case.
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Re: Origins - Shadows of History by Rick Davidson

Unread post by vasta41 »

Gareth wrote:By reducing his costs (printing with LPCC), Rick has reduced the value of the pledges in my opinion...
sinjin7 wrote:...for me, and many others, it would be a disappointment to see a printer switch. When I first read the Update, I got the impression that Rick was definitely switching to the Taiwanese (Chinese?) printer, but I'm glad to see that he still may stay with the USPCC. In my opinion, keeping everything with the USPCC will result in better quality, consistency across both versions, and faster fulfillment so I hope that will be the case.
Both great points. I would like to see (and will probably end up seeing) USPCC printing because A) I'm a sucker for USPCC and B) because it is a better value (IMO I guess?). This is all hypothetical now that the project is funded but let's pretend there were 4 days left and 25% more to go. Rick saw the writing on the wall and figured that the campaign wouldn't fund as-is. What if he took a poll and stated, "this project doesn't look like it will fund and I cannot pay out-of-pocket to complete it. Would you rather I scrap this project or use a cheaper printer in order to see this project to fruition?" I would be curious to see how many people would vote for LPCC printing. I would be hesitant because I would want nothing more than for these to be printed by USPCC but ultimately I would vote for LPCC printing over nothing at all (if that were the choice. I realize now the point is moot).
Maybe sinjin is right- maybe the project wasn't advertised properly. Or maybe it could have started off with the black ed. add-ons. Who knows why this struggled.. especially after how good the 1st editions were. Either way I'm glad things turned out the way they did.
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Re: Origins - Shadows of History by Rick Davidson

Unread post by badpete69 »

sinjin7 wrote:I don't mind that Rick came out with an "ultra-limited" edition that is merely a tuck swap. I get that there are a lot of collectors out there that are basically tuck box collectors since they never open their decks, so they don't care if the cards inside their blinged out tucks are identical to the standard editions, or even printed by a crappier printer for that matter. As its been mentioned, I'm not forced to buy it, and I usually don't. For me, an exclusive "limited" edition should be differentiated by the cards inside as well as a blinged out tuck. I have no problems buying those for the collection. But there is obviously a market for those tuck box collectors, so it makes real-world economic sense to cater to them as well, especially if they're easily parted with a lot of their money for just a fancy tuck.
Please tell us how you really feel about tuck collectors hahahaha I get that it's not your thing. But this strategy has been used in other hobby like comic book collecting. How many times did comics have a variant cover with the same comic book inside but it always sold out and the variant cover edition was always more expensive on the reseller market. To me the tuck is an important part of the overall product, so a tuck swap is a different product overall. I do open some of my decks not all but these I consider collector's item. Anyway each collector has different views and that's what makes the hobby great.

By the way it is now limited to 150 not 100 :ugking:
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Re: Origins - Shadows of History by Rick Davidson

Unread post by Conturbia »

I don't understand the hate: if you don't want to get the special version, just don't pledge for that. I really can't see the problem: if it's not your cup of tea.. don't drink it, it may be good for others.

Am I wrong?
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Re: Origins - Shadows of History by Rick Davidson

Unread post by RichK »

Conturbia wrote:I don't understand the hate: if you don't want to get the special version, just don't pledge for that. I really can't see the problem: if it's not your cup of tea.. don't drink it, it may be good for others.

Am I wrong?
You're correct on the "don't want it, don't buy it" point. I think part of the problem is that it was introduced half way through the campaign and it's just a different tuck box (really fancy pull tab way of opening in my opinion). I'm guessing Rick was working out the details and didn't want to announce it until it was doable. If he had mentioned it at the beginning as a possibility I don't feel there would be such a reaction.

Bottom line, they are funded, and he's asking USPCC for pricing again.
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Re: Origins - Shadows of History by Rick Davidson

Unread post by vasta41 »

RichK wrote:Bottom line, they are funded, and he's asking USPCC for pricing again.
Fingers crossed.
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Re: Origins - Shadows of History by Rick Davidson

Unread post by shaitani »

People on this forum are pretty weird in that sense. Some people defend to their deaths the ability for artists to do tuck swaps, and some regard it as a war crime. E.g. the New Zealand deck had like 2 tuck swaps added in the campaign, and someone complained, and everyone attacked them. This project people seem to be hating on the addition of a single limited tuck swap.

Yeah maybe it's the time at which it was added, or the cost, or the surprise. But really, it's very hard to say when people will become outraged, and that has to be annoying for artists who probably feel "damned if you do, damned if you don't" for every tough decision they have to make.
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Re: Origins - Shadows of History by Rick Davidson

Unread post by MagikFingerz »

I don't know if this will apply to many, but I used to be annoyed by tuck swaps. Then I realized I didn't need to buy all versions of a deck I was backing, and once I didn't have that need I stopped being annoyed. Now I only get annoyed if there's a "you can only get deck x if you buy deck y" and I want deck x.

I would theorize that those who defend tuck swaps (like shaitani describes) basically have that same need, except they like the addition of more versions and can afford them.
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Re: Origins - Shadows of History by Rick Davidson

Unread post by rousselle »

+1, what shaitani said.

I'm all in favor of tuck swaps I don't have to pay for if it means my favorite projects get funded. I'm all in favor of color changes when I like them, and I'm in favor of color changes when I don't (however, in those cases, I simply don't pledge.)

I completely agree that some of the harping is likely diluting the legitimate constructive criticism that could genuinely make projects better, and that some project creators are likely to slip into lurker mode or simply slip away entirely when the ranting gets out of hand.

As for this specific project, while I'm not going in for the tuck swap, myself, I nonetheless think it looks awesome, and I'm glad it's helped get this project funded. I love Rick's work, and these decks are simply screaming to join my collection.
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Re: Origins - Shadows of History by Rick Davidson

Unread post by shaitani »

I definitely agree that the affordability is a huge part of it.

Since people like to have the "complete collection" like you described, they are more likely to get angry if they can't buy some item in that "complete" collection without burning money. And they're more likely to be accepting of added decks as long as they only have to fork over a few bucks to get them.

Hypothetically, to illustrate even for the richest collector, imagine you're collecting those glamour nuggets for example, and you have all 150 colored versions of it, then you find out that the artist created only 5 of an obscure color and gave it to his friends. Effectively the cost for you to complete your collection is infinity. Because unless you happen to know those friends and can throw money at them, you're never going to have a complete collection, and I can see how that would enrage people.
MagikFingerz wrote:Now I only get annoyed if there's a "you can only get deck x if you buy deck y" and I want deck x.
For sure, that can be very annoying, and it's already the norm. Every kickstarter project now requires you to pick up the "everything package" to get the nicest/rarest one. The only way to get just the "nice"/"rare" one is to buy secondary-market, and that often ends up costing as much as if you just pledged for the "everything package" to begin with.
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Re: Origins - Shadows of History by Rick Davidson

Unread post by Marcus »

Gareth wrote: Interestingly, we've just discovered that the updates can be edited.
Kickstarter updates are editable for 30 minutes after they're sent out, after that they are locked down. It's so KS creators have a chance to correct any typos or mistakes made that weren't caught until after having sent the update.
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Re: Origins - Shadows of History by Rick Davidson

Unread post by Bruno »

USPCC :D
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Re: Origins - Shadows of History by Rick Davidson

Unread post by RickDavidson »

Hi guys :) Sorry I'm on the drive to work (torrential rain) so haven't read the chat yet, looks like a good one! Just a note that both decks will be printed with the USPCC. Had to make a very hard decision mid campaign and hope it paid off, we've just scraped in. Thanks to everyone who kept the faith. I'll read up soon and feedback
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Re: Origins - Shadows of History by Rick Davidson

Unread post by sms69x »

In the end I'm happy that I kept my pledge!

I was kinda annoyed by the Black Label editon as I thought that it was to replace the mentioned MetalLuxe streatch goal, and in a rush to get the deck funded Rick decided offer a lesser deck, but I misunderstood that! So I kept my pledge and even pledge for the black label in order to help this one getting fundded, very happy I did that and I can't wait for it (already reserved a spot for it right next to the Origins Grail in my top 10).

Congrats Rick for managing the campaign so well.
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Re: Origins - Shadows of History by Rick Davidson

Unread post by RickDavidson »

Hey guys, have finally caught up. Understand the feelings during the campaign. Hopefully I've made amends, and thank you for the solid UC support.

I have to say straight up my only goal is to create decks you guys will love, profit or not. Running a campaign can be a tricky balance. Signed and limited decks are a popular request and it's difficult when I can't provide signed decks from NZ without major shipping costs. With the Black Label I felt I could at least provide backers who did want this something really unique. There is a lot of detail and time involved in creating it. But I absolutely understand collectors who see it as an unnecessary extra.

After working through a range of options I was confident we would be back on track with the original plans - and I would always put everything back into producing the best decks I could. A lot of quality competition on KS at the moment, so thank you for the support. I mean that :) I am really excited about seeing these decks produced.
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Re: Origins - Shadows of History by Rick Davidson

Unread post by Bruno »

Lets just bring these beauties into focus where they belong.
Thanks Rick .... not far to go now ....
O, I beg of you your comprehensions,
yet laugh at your contempts ....
my only competition is with myselves.

But Lèse-majesté, especially >Normans, natch.

Is jarnstill the Ars of the Hors Nebulous ?
Neigh .... the Effluxor of the Omniverse ??
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Azid
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Re: Origins - Shadows of History by Rick Davidson

Unread post by Azid »

Got my decks yesterday :) and i'm very happy what Rick has done.
The Shadow deck is amazing, the tuck is superb !! But some cards are a bit misaligned, a wellknown USPCC issue.
The Rouen 1567 is a deck of it's own league. I don't have any deck like this, those lovely courts and vintage pips makes this deck an unique thing in my collection.
Imo every collector & card lover shoud have both decks in their collection.

Thanks to Rick for these wonderful decks!
Can't wait to see what he is doing for the UC2018 Sixth Annual Decks. ;)
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