sinjin7 wrote:
EPCC does not own a single factory. Instead, they contract with existing printing companies (primarily in Asia for cheaper costs). The very first deck they made was Global Titans, and those were manufactured in a Chinese factory. Most of their decks since then are made in the Taiwanese factory.
Same for Legends, they also printed their Serpentine in China but they handle quite nice imo. I guess ist the same factory EPCC uses.
PRC = People's Republic of China
Here is the product description of Serpentines (Full description) :
" At LPCC we are always experimenting with new production methods, printing, and packaging. We printed Serpentine at a new factory, on traditionally cut European card stock, with precise printing registration. Though the cards don't have the exact same buttery smooth edges as our 'Diamond Cut' decks printed in Taiwan, the cards faro extremely well, and our new Emerald Finish has a great snap and feel in-between our stiffer Diamond Finish and softer Classic Finish. The cards have more of a "papery" feeling to them than Diamond Finish, yet are still durable and resist warping in humid or arid climates. In short, a fantastic handling deck at a competitive price point. "
Hmm, I have the Serpentine decks as well but didn't realize they were made in China. Those handle OK, not great, but OK, so I guess the Chinese factory has made some improvements since Global Titans. Thanks for pointing this out. Again, hopefully Jackson will come out and put this to rest by informing us where the Legal Tenders are made.
sinjin7 wrote:Hmm, I have the Serpentine decks as well but didn't realize they were made in China. Those handle OK, not great, but OK, so I guess the Chinese factory has made some improvements since Global Titans. Thanks for pointing this out. Again, hopefully Jackson will come out and put this to rest by informing us where the Legal Tenders are made.
Could be different factories in China as well, I imagine there are several. Stock will make a huge difference as well, and any presses and chemicals used in finishing, it's really hard to say, without more information, whether they share any part of process, or even the factory, for these other decks, and that's assuming those decks came from the same printer in China. If someone has more definitive information I would love for them to share it, but right now we are just looking for confirmation bias from assumptions and rumors
Jackson completely revolutionized the way I waste money...
JR did mention it in his latest update "Thanks so much for your support. I am trying to put together some images of the tuck cases to show you how great they turned out. The Chinese deck really looks awesome!"
Also, there is a huge import tax (due to the relation between Taiwan & China) levied for imports from Taiwan in China (and may be, it is the same case vice versa), so printing tuckbox in China and cards in Taiwan or the other way around, will make sure the deck production costs to spiral upwards. If I remember it correctly, it was 17% but I'm not able to find that reference in my emails. It was the case when I was looking to get the production done by EPCC (in Taiwan) and shipping from China.
guru wrote:The Chinese deck really looks awesome!"
I believe he meant the deck that is Chinese currency.
But I'm not saying there is a split production in Taiwan and China, I'm just offering that there could be. I'm trying to make a point that we don't know, and we are just assuming because we don't have information, but it doesn't always help to make inferences without information, and can sometimes be negative or destructive to just guess
Jackson completely revolutionized the way I waste money...
guru wrote:The Chinese deck really looks awesome!"
I believe he meant the deck that is Chinese currency.
But I'm not saying there is a split production in Taiwan and China, I'm just offering that there could be. I'm trying to make a point that we don't know, and we are just assuming because we don't have information, but it doesn't always help to make inferences without information, and can sometimes be negative or destructive to just guess
Justin - You're right. My bad, I took it literally and forgot that there is a Chinese currency deck as well. Apologies. I believe it is better to wait for response from JR or Delanie.
I'm guessing that Jackson wouldn't print with the Chinese printer. The quality is just not as good as the Taiwan printer.
I'm not sure why, but the Taiwan printer takes off for the Chinese New Years celebration as well. It has delayed my Taiwan-printed projects two separate times - the Grinders Decks last year, and the original Draconians two years ago.
RandyButterfield wrote: I'm not sure why, but the Taiwan printer takes off for the Chinese New Years celebration as well. It has delayed my Taiwan-printed projects two separate times - the Grinders Decks last year, and the original Draconians two years ago.
Many countries in Asia (China, Hong Kong, Singapore and Taiwan) take off for the Chinese New Year as it is celebrated by all Chinese, regardless of country
A deck a day helps keep the addiction at bay!
Check out my collection on Instagram @caratcasecreations
Anyway during CNY majority of postal service, Chinese foods stall and other daily necessities store / service are closed for 3-5 or 14 days??? So do not seek printing around January February period and decks to be shipped for 3-14days..basically what Shermjack wrote.
But also you gotta to understand why take a long break
1) being visiting family members
2) Majority of Asian countries work hours are stupid hours, compared to EU US
China / some Asian countries some of them got repay back for their "holiday"
I understand Jackson has had the best of intentions but he has had at least 1 issue with just about every one of his last 6/7 projects. I also understand that KS is technically not a store but people have come to expect what they pledged for. I'm reminded of the story of the boy who called wolf. I'm basically to the point of having lost faith in Jackson. Don't get me wrong, I've met Jackson a few times in person, he's a great guy but I just have to question whether he can/can't produce the exact product he's selling.
The Legal Tender tuck case is finished and we have a proof, its not the final proof, its an early stage proof so the final tuck case won't look exactly like this. For example, the seal on the US deck is in foil on the proof, but that has been changed to ink because the detail is so small it gets lost in the foil and looks pretty crummy.
And this is how I read the update:
The Legal Tender tuck case is finished and by "finished" I mean it's not finished at all. In fact we're taking out even more foil elements that you guys paid for.
You know, in any other campaign after reading that update I'd say, "I don't care- I totally trust the creator to do what's best for an optimal deck." But after everything that happened in this campaign (not to mention the past 5 others) I can't help but think by the time we get these decks they'll be 52 standard cards wrapped in an effing rubber band.
For those that requested and received a refund (partial or otherwise), how long did it take from the time you sent the message until the time the refund was applied to your credit card?
Pablo393 wrote:For those that requested and received a refund (partial or otherwise), how long did it take from the time you sent the message until the time the refund was applied to your credit card?
Within the hour, but I did not get a reply message, I got an email advising the refund had been made with a note from Jackson attached to the refund, so if you are looking for a response by message you may not get one. I would also argue that it is requisite on Jackson being online and seeing your message. I made the request mid-day on a weekend if it helps, but I would give him 48 hours because god knows I don't log into Kickstarter, or even check my email, every day
Jackson completely revolutionized the way I waste money...
Pablo393 wrote:For those that requested and received a refund (partial or otherwise), how long did it take from the time you sent the message until the time the refund was applied to your credit card?
JR agreed to refund my pledge on Feb 03, but until today I'm still waiting... So is just a matter of waiting (as we are used to...)
I've also requested a partial refund via KS. I had originally pledged for two of each decks, based on JR's reputation. I really didn't care that much about the US decks and with the recent problems, I find that I care about them even less. I was more interested in the Chinese decks. Since I've found out that he basically changed printers from Taiwan to China, I've lost all confidence. I'm keeping one Chinese deck since the artwork is very cool. However, I don't see any reason to buy more than one deck at this point.
Pablo393 wrote:For those that requested and received a refund (partial or otherwise), how long did it take from the time you sent the message until the time the refund was applied to your credit card?
JR agreed to refund my pledge on Feb 03, but until today I'm still waiting... So is just a matter of waiting (as we are used to...)
Did you get notification from Kickstarter that the refund had been issued? Obviously Jackson isn't responsible for Kickstarter floating the funds. I got notification immediately, but am waiting on KS to deposite. If you haven't gotten notification I would reach out to Jackson
Jackson completely revolutionized the way I waste money...
Well we're going into the 6th month PAST DUE on these disappointing decks and I just wanted to share an epiphany I had- Jackson hit a plateau here. He thought he could duplicate all the success he had in the past and couldn't keep up. As Bane so eloquently put it in The Dark Knight Rises,
I'm tempted to say I'll never buy another JR deck again but his artwork is just so damn good. We'll see if he goes back to his roots on his next few projects.
Jackson is an amazing artist but sometimes reality supersedes expectations. I think he really thought his ideas could be mass produced but as the same time has become slightly arrogant due to his continued success. Don't get me wrong, Jackson is a great guy but sometimes success goes to one's head.
May 11 2017 Legal Tender is at Gambler's Warehouse!
Legal Tender has arrived at Gambler's Warehouse! Since this is the first time Gambler's has fulfilled one of our projects, we have to go through some standard procedures before fulfillment begins. However, fulfillment will begin soon. You should have received a 48 hour reminder from Backerkit to finalize your address if it has changed. Thank you guys for your support throughout this project.
May 18 2017 Hey guys! We're finishing up the last details for shipping and fulfillment should begin next week. We'll give you more details on fulfillment process once we begin. Thank you for your patience.
I don't what the average turn around time is for Gambler's but I was under the impression that it was pretty quick. Perhaps someone in the know could enlighten us. I don't remember getting a Backerkit notice either.
I got a backerkit a long time ago, didnt do anything sice i had my pledge refynded by jackson when it turned out there would be no holographic foil on the cards. But hes communicating a lot better lately, just not in this forum for, sort of, obvious reasons
May 11 2017 Legal Tender is at Gambler's Warehouse!
Legal Tender has arrived at Gambler's Warehouse! Since this is the first time Gambler's has fulfilled one of our projects, we have to go through some standard procedures before fulfillment begins. However, fulfillment will begin soon. You should have received a 48 hour reminder from Backerkit to finalize your address if it has changed. Thank you guys for your support throughout this project.
May 18 2017 Hey guys! We're finishing up the last details for shipping and fulfillment should begin next week. We'll give you more details on fulfillment process once we begin. Thank you for your patience.
I don't what the average turn around time is for Gambler's but I was under the impression that it was pretty quick. Perhaps someone in the know could enlighten us. I don't remember getting a Backerkit notice either.
So that should have meant the week of the 22nd, but a week after on the 29th this was Jackson's comment "Shipping will start this coming week". Which to me means the week of June 5th, 3-4 weeks after arriving and 2 weeks after they said it would start. Transparency is what is needed, because this just reeks of something I just don't know what.
ecNate wrote:Transparency is what is needed, because this just reeks of something I just don't know what.
I'll tell you what it reeks of- Jackson Robinson no longer giving a shit about anything but profit. His work has gotten lazy as indicated by all the misspellings and mistakes riddled throughout almost every single one of his recent campaigns. He hasn't been doing his homework as indicated by the many things (special features, add-ons, etc.) promised during a campaign but not delivered afterward. Even though we're just a small percentile of backers his absence here over the past 6 months or so indicate that he doesn't care about his customers anymore. Otherwise he'd be taking our feedback and listening to constructive criticism or at the least, facing his critics. Instead he has a "take it or leave it" attitude which isn't necessarily a bad thing but it's not a good thing IMO. But whether you agree with that or not another more obvious indication he doesn't care about his customers is the crap updates he sends regarding shipping and progress. This project is now 6 months overdue and at one point he even had the nerve to act as though being overdue was no big deal, as indicated by sinjin here: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=8609&start=240#p113320" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
In summation I feel as though success really got to JR but I sure hope after all this he got knocked back down a few pegs and he reverts back to what he once was.
Playingcards.net and Gamblers Warehouse has sent you a package
Just got that email and based on my lower level of pledges and what's outstanding that can only mean they actually are shipping now. GW Fulfillment should really take the added step of including in the email what is being sent, even if it's just generic 'from the Kickstarter x campaign'.
Playingcards.net and Gamblers Warehouse has sent you a package
Just got that email and based on my lower level of pledges and what's outstanding that can only mean they actually are shipping now. GW Fulfillment should really take the added step of including in the email what is being sent, even if it's just generic 'from the Kickstarter x campaign'.
I completely agree. I doubt it would add that much coding to the email to include what is being shipped.
Like Nate, I got a tracking number from GW today as well. Figures. I assume it is the Legal Tender decks, but as Nate said, it would be nice if they would let you know. I was concerned more about the quality of the cards than the lack of holographic foil. It will be interesting to see how they turned out.
I just got my mixed brick of Legal Tender decks, and this is the most disappointed I've ever been with a deck produced by Jackson. It's even worse than the whole Moriarty v.1 debacle. We already know about the whole holographic foil screw up and the tardiness in which Jackson informed us about no holo foil (or any foil), but I'm discovering so many new issues I almost don't know where to begin.
The most unforgivable aspect of this deck is that it fans like utter crap. I'm talking way worse than even Global Titans, which were, up until this point, the worst deck from EPCC/LPCC. I'm talking way way worse than any deck with foiling, and these infamously don't have any foil. I'm not exaggerating when I say I have some novelty decks that I've bought for less than a dollar that fan better than these decks. Both the U.S. and China currency versions are equally bad. I'm actually offended that Jackson charged us $16.00 per deck shipped for this unacceptable low level of quality.
The tuck boxes feel very flimsy, the stock feels thin and the tucks have some sort of coating that's somewhere between glossy and matte that feels cheap. The embossing is poor on the US version. The simpler outline of embossing doesn't match well with the detail of the printing, and there's a minor error in the embossing on the back of the tuck where there's embossing for the date banner that's found on the front of the tuck, but not present on the back design, yet the embossing is there despite the lack of the date banner on the back. Again, while its a minor embossing error, it lends to the feeling that something isn't quite right with the overall embossing of the whole deck. In the KS renders, both tucks showed fancy deck seals, especially for the Chinese version, but none of the decks have any deck seals. Now I've been on record in saying I really don't care for deck seals, but in this instance, it just makes me wonder where all the money went in producing this overpriced deck? We didn't get foiling (holo or otherwise), these were printed in a cheaper overseas factory (China?), and now they don't even have seals. So exactly what the #@%$ were we charged $16.00 per deck for? Apparently for the privilege funding his damn YouTube videos...
The background color on the face cards are different for each suit. Noticeably different. So noticeably different that I have fears these decks may possibly be rendered unplayable. The Spades are purple, the Hearts are green, the Diamonds are pink, and the Clubs are beige. Thankfully when the cards are face down and you push/spread a stack slightly to one side, all the colors are the same. But if you have a stack face up and push/spread the stack slightly to one side, it is very obvious what the suits are by the colors you see. Again, I'll have to play with these on a poker night to see if the cards can be flashed in any way during normal play where the suits of the cards may be revealed or not. The Chinese deck has obvious colored faces by suit as well.
The Ace of Spades for both the US deck and Chinese deck are pretty bad. The large center spades are just empty, which badly clashes with the ornate design all around them. The spades as they are just look out of place. I can only guess that the large center spades were supposed to receive some type of (holo) foil treatment, but since Jackson failed to incorporate the foil, this is what we were left with, a void in the center spades.
The bottom of the tucks indicate these were made in Taipei. In his updates, it certainly sounded like the cards were made in China, but when I asked him in the comment section if he would confirm these are printed in China, he never answered me. At this point I don't know if I would believe anything Jackson tells me about the Legal Tender decks anyway. If these were in fact printed in China, then mystery solved as to the exceptionally poor quality of the handling of the cards. They fan like China produced novelty decks. But if these were in fact printed in Taiwan, then I don't know if I can trust EPCC/LPCC decks anymore, even if they were printed in Taiwan.
Are there any positives to this deck? Well, the art is good on the court cards and backs for both the US and Chinese versions, and there is a little bit of foil on the tucks and a little bit of interior tuck printing, but precious little else to justify the cost we paid and the length of time we had to wait before being disappointed with the actual decks. If I walked into a shop and saw these decks and handled them, I wouldn't even pay $8.00 per deck for this quality, and we all paid double that for broken promises of ground-breaking bells and whistles. I mean, I figured we were screwed over already by not getting holo foiling, but I didn't expect to be let down to this massive degree.
I can almost hear Jackson's smug voice telling me to return them for a refund if I don't like them. Screw you, Jackson, these pieces of crap aren't worth my trouble of repacking all the decks and making a trip out to the post office to return them. I was inconvenienced enough having to wait all these months to get the decks in the first place, I refuse to be put out any further by these decks. I don't know if I'll ever back a Kickstarter project by Jackson ever again.
I received my decks today but haven't opened them. As I've stated here and on the campaign page, I didn't care so much about the foiling as about the feel of the cards. Jackson did say that they would be made in China and that concerned me. It seems my worst fears have come to pass. I bought two of each, which really stretched my budget. I did this based on Jackson's track record and reputation. After this, I think I'm done with JR projects. Thanks to sinjin for that honest review.
BTW, I had sent him a PM on KS saying that only wanted 1 of each and a refund for the other two. I never got a reply so I decided to let it go in the hopes that the cards wouldn't be as bad as I was afraid they would be. Live and learn, I guess.
but that was funny
