Legal Tender - By Jackson Robinson

[Justin O.]

"@John Ahn, unfortunately, all the foil complications were interrelated so there is no regular foiling on the cards."

That is incredibly disappointing. I know Jackson has offered backers in the past a refund where changes have been made and they have not been happy with the changed version, perhaps you can get a refund for these? I have reached out to Jackson requesting a refund for my pledge given the circumstances with this deck and am waiting on a reply. There is still some exceptionally beautiful artwork here, and the legacy cases still impress me everytime I see them. despite the foiling and higher than average deck cost there is a still a lot of value here for backers. But I understand your frustration Sinjin, and recent projects, not just on Kickstarter, and not just with Jackson, have had me really reevaluate the way in which I choose to be a consumer.

[sinjin7]

I agree there is still some value here, but if I knew from the beginning how this deck would turn out, there's no way I'm putting down $170.00 like I did for a brick. Not for non-foiled EPCC decks. Under any other circumstances, I absolutely would be asking for a refund. But Jackson still has a large base of fanboys, so I expect I'll be able to easily unload these decks and get my money back, if not more, some months down the line when these decks finally get delivered.

[Justin O.]

Jackson issued the refund and was very gracious about it. So I won't be getting the Legacy sets for this project but I think that people who stick with it will be pleased with the final product

[PrincessTrouble]

No foil at all? That REALLY blows. I'm going to ask him for a partial refund. I don't want a brick of non-foiled cards.

EDIT: Jackson promptly issued me a partial refund with no fuss.

[PrincessTrouble]

I also have to say that this information about the holographic seals and the foiling should have been included in the update. And should have been disclosed in November. I miss Marcus.

[cherrynukacola]

Darn. That's really disappointing.

[MagikFingerz]

Had to go back and check, but I never pulled the trigger on pledging for these. Glad I didn't now, would've asked for a full refund if I did.

[badpete69]

I agree there is still some value here, but if I knew from the beginning how this deck would turn out, there's no way I'm putting down $170.00 like I did for a brick. Not for non-foiled EPCC decks. Under any other circumstances, I absolutely would be asking for a refund. But Jackson still has a large base of fanboys, so I expect I'll be able to easily unload these decks and get my money back, if not more, some months down the line when these decks finally get delivered.

Believe me the fanboys numbers are dwindling but you are probably right. I am glad I simply pledged for 1 deck of each. More than enough for a normal deck

[chach]

Believing Jack$on's claims during a campaign. Or pretty much anywhere...

What's sad is people still think they'll get pearlescent gilding too.

[guru]

I also have to say that this information about the holographic seals and the foiling should have been included in the update. And should been disclosed in November. I miss Marcus.

hmm....this should have been included in the update. As far as I know, their Chinese factory does have advanced foiling capabilities, so if the project is completely backing out of holo and regular foiling, it means a serious blocker has come up. I do understand and empathize with how you all would be feeling, but let me tell you this, foiling does increase risk exponentially for any project. I used to think that it may be dependent on printer's experience, but lately I saw that even if you have done similar projects before, it is no guarantee that a new project will come out with flying colors after first print run. And, if there is an issue in foiling, the whole set of sheets just go to waste paving the way for another print run.

I remember seeing another thread few days back with low print run, double foil and a few folks complaining about high per deck cost. Double foil is an experimental technique and the risk it carries is way high than normal decks, and may be it is also a factor in cost determination apart from the usual factors. Similarly, this project by JR seems to have encountered issues with foil which is disappointing to all backers but JR will also be having similar feelings for not being able to achieve his vision. I do hope and wish JR will be lot a wiser with his next projects.

[flashcards]

I thought EPCC used the factory in Taiwan. I didn't realize that they had an additional factory in China. I am not too invested in the foil thing but the basic feel of the cards is important to me. Does anyone know if the cards made in the China facility are identical in quality to the ones made in the Taiwan factory?

[guru]

I thought EPCC used the factory in Taiwan. I didn't realize that they had an additional factory in China. I am not too invested in the foil thing but the basic feel of the cards is important to me. Does anyone know if the cards made in the China facility are identical in quality to the ones made in the Taiwan factory?

I've heard they are good and I'm sure folks here will be having decks produced by Legends in China.
On another note, Jody's TITANS Robber Baron edition deck is also being produced by Legends in the Chinese factory.

[sms69x]

Jackson issued the refund and was very gracious about it. So I won't be getting the Legacy sets for this project but I think that people who stick with it will be pleased with the final product

No foil at all? That REALLY blows. I'm going to ask him for a partial refund. I don't want a brick of non-foiled cards.

EDIT: Jackson promptly issued me a partial refund with no fuss.

So How did you contact him to get the refund? Was through KS message, or by the email he provided?
Just asking because nowadays is almost impossible to reach Mr JR, and I sure want my refund.

[pablo19]

No foil at all? That REALLY blows. I'm going to ask him for a partial refund. I don't want a brick of non-foiled cards.

EDIT: Jackson promptly issued me a partial refund with no fuss.

I asked for a full refund and got it quickly, glad Jackson manages this smoothly.

I'm curious has to what you mean by partial refund, is it less decks but full price for each (less reward, less money)? or is is the brick at a lower price (same reward, less money)?

[PrincessTrouble]

Jackson issued the refund and was very gracious about it. So I won't be getting the Legacy sets for this project but I think that people who stick with it will be pleased with the final product

No foil at all? That REALLY blows. I'm going to ask him for a partial refund. I don't want a brick of non-foiled cards.

EDIT: Jackson promptly issued me a partial refund with no fuss.

So How did you contact him to get the refund? Was through KS message, or by the email he provided?
Just asking because nowadays is almost impossible to reach Mr JR, and I sure want my refund.

Through the email he provided in the update. jackson@kingswildproject.com

[PrincessTrouble]

No foil at all? That REALLY blows. I'm going to ask him for a partial refund. I don't want a brick of non-foiled cards.

EDIT: Jackson promptly issued me a partial refund with no fuss.

I asked for a full refund and got it quickly, glad Jackson manages this smoothly.

I'm curious has to what you mean by partial refund, is it less decks but full price for each (less reward, less money)? or is is the brick at a lower price (same reward, less money)?

I asked to change my pledge from 6 x 6 to 3 x 3 and for him to refund half my pledge.

[Justin O.]

I keep seeing you guys say they are being printed in China, but I don't see where Jackson said this is the case..? Am I missing something?

[sms69x]

I keep seeing you guys say they are being printed in China, but I don't see where Jackson said this is the case..? Am I missing something?

In his last update first line:
"Hello everyone. Today most people in China (where the cards are being produced) are returning from their breaks for the Lunar new year."

[Justin O.]

I keep seeing you guys say they are being printed in China, but I don't see where Jackson said this is the case..? Am I missing something?

In his last update first line:
"Hello everyone. Today most people in China (where the cards are being produced) are returning from their breaks for the Lunar new year."

Gotcha, but it doesn't say that is where they were printed, that could just mean tucks or something ancillary to the decks... Seems like a bit of a presumption on our part...

[sinjin7]

I thought EPCC used the factory in Taiwan. I didn't realize that they had an additional factory in China. I am not too invested in the foil thing but the basic feel of the cards is important to me. Does anyone know if the cards made in the China facility are identical in quality to the ones made in the Taiwan factory?

Here is Conjuring Arts' official announcement about EPCC:

"The Expert Playing Card Company, LLC is a new Conjuring Arts project formed especially to produce the finest performing playing cards worldwide.
We are very fortunate here at Conjuring Arts to have access to some of the finest card handlers and experts in the world and have ceaselessly asked, prodded and cajoled their opinions so that we might be better informed on how to produce great playing cards.

The goal of The Expert Playing Card Co. is to find factories worldwide that can produce the very best playing cards possible and to contract with them for custom cards meant to actually be used by the experts in sleight of hand and cardistry. "

EPCC does not own a single factory. Instead, they contract with existing printing companies (primarily in Asia for cheaper costs). The very first deck they made was Global Titans, and those were manufactured in a Chinese factory. Most of their decks since then are made in the Taiwanese factory. While there may be some ambiguity in Jackson's update about where the Legal Tender decks were printed (not surprising given Jackson's communication skills), the clear implication is that these may have been produced in China. Granted, it could entirely turn out that the cards are printed in Taiwan and the tuck are made in China, but that doesn't seem to be the most efficient manner to produce a deck, and you would think it would be faster and cheaper to produce all the elements of a deck in the same country.

My only experience with the factory that EPCC contracts with in China is the Global Titans deck. The Global Titans handle like crap, and that's me being polite. So I sincerely hope for Jackson's sake the cards themselves were made in the Taiwanese factory. I see on the Legal Tender KS campaign that someone already asked Jackson for clarification of where the cards were manufactured. Let's see if Jackson can follow through with the promise he made in his most recent update, and YouTube video, about having better communication and quickly answer that question.

[Azid]

EPCC does not own a single factory. Instead, they contract with existing printing companies (primarily in Asia for cheaper costs). The very first deck they made was Global Titans, and those were manufactured in a Chinese factory. Most of their decks since then are made in the Taiwanese factory.

Same for Legends, they also printed their Serpentine in China but they handle quite nice imo. I guess ist the same factory EPCC uses.
PRC = People's Republic of China



Here is the product description of Serpentines (Full description) :
" At LPCC we are always experimenting with new production methods, printing, and packaging. We printed Serpentine at a new factory, on traditionally cut European card stock, with precise printing registration. Though the cards don't have the exact same buttery smooth edges as our 'Diamond Cut' decks printed in Taiwan, the cards faro extremely well, and our new Emerald Finish has a great snap and feel in-between our stiffer Diamond Finish and softer Classic Finish. The cards have more of a "papery" feeling to them than Diamond Finish, yet are still durable and resist warping in humid or arid climates. In short, a fantastic handling deck at a competitive price point. "

[sinjin7]

Hmm, I have the Serpentine decks as well but didn't realize they were made in China. Those handle OK, not great, but OK, so I guess the Chinese factory has made some improvements since Global Titans. Thanks for pointing this out. Again, hopefully Jackson will come out and put this to rest by informing us where the Legal Tenders are made.

[Justin O.]

Hmm, I have the Serpentine decks as well but didn't realize they were made in China. Those handle OK, not great, but OK, so I guess the Chinese factory has made some improvements since Global Titans. Thanks for pointing this out. Again, hopefully Jackson will come out and put this to rest by informing us where the Legal Tenders are made.

Could be different factories in China as well, I imagine there are several. Stock will make a huge difference as well, and any presses and chemicals used in finishing, it's really hard to say, without more information, whether they share any part of process, or even the factory, for these other decks, and that's assuming those decks came from the same printer in China. If someone has more definitive information I would love for them to share it, but right now we are just looking for confirmation bias from assumptions and rumors

[guru]

JR did mention it in his latest update "Thanks so much for your support. I am trying to put together some images of the tuck cases to show you how great they turned out. The Chinese deck really looks awesome!"

Also, there is a huge import tax (due to the relation between Taiwan & China) levied for imports from Taiwan in China (and may be, it is the same case vice versa), so printing tuckbox in China and cards in Taiwan or the other way around, will make sure the deck production costs to spiral upwards. If I remember it correctly, it was 17% but I'm not able to find that reference in my emails. It was the case when I was looking to get the production done by EPCC (in Taiwan) and shipping from China.

[Justin O.]

The Chinese deck really looks awesome!"

I believe he meant the deck that is Chinese currency.


But I'm not saying there is a split production in Taiwan and China, I'm just offering that there could be. I'm trying to make a point that we don't know, and we are just assuming because we don't have information, but it doesn't always help to make inferences without information, and can sometimes be negative or destructive to just guess

[guru]

The Chinese deck really looks awesome!"

I believe he meant the deck that is Chinese currency.


But I'm not saying there is a split production in Taiwan and China, I'm just offering that there could be. I'm trying to make a point that we don't know, and we are just assuming because we don't have information, but it doesn't always help to make inferences without information, and can sometimes be negative or destructive to just guess

Justin - You're right. My bad, I took it literally and forgot that there is a Chinese currency deck as well. Apologies. I believe it is better to wait for response from JR or Delanie.

[RandyButterfield]

I'm guessing that Jackson wouldn't print with the Chinese printer. The quality is just not as good as the Taiwan printer.

I'm not sure why, but the Taiwan printer takes off for the Chinese New Years celebration as well. It has delayed my Taiwan-printed projects two separate times - the Grinders Decks last year, and the original Draconians two years ago.

Thanks, Randy

[shermjack]

I'm not sure why, but the Taiwan printer takes off for the Chinese New Years celebration as well. It has delayed my Taiwan-printed projects two separate times - the Grinders Decks last year, and the original Draconians two years ago.

Many countries in Asia (China, Hong Kong, Singapore and Taiwan) take off for the Chinese New Year as it is celebrated by all Chinese, regardless of country

[hawk199]

Sorry but that was funny

Anyway during CNY majority of postal service, Chinese foods stall and other daily necessities store / service are closed for 3-5 or 14 days??? So do not seek printing around January February period and decks to be shipped for 3-14days..basically what Shermjack wrote.

But also you gotta to understand why take a long break
1) being visiting family members
2) Majority of Asian countries work hours are stupid hours, compared to EU US
China / some Asian countries some of them got repay back for their "holiday"

[Cbkimble]

I understand Jackson has had the best of intentions but he has had at least 1 issue with just about every one of his last 6/7 projects. I also understand that KS is technically not a store but people have come to expect what they pledged for. I'm reminded of the story of the boy who called wolf. I'm basically to the point of having lost faith in Jackson. Don't get me wrong, I've met Jackson a few times in person, he's a great guy but I just have to question whether he can/can't produce the exact product he's selling.