Legal Tender - By Jackson Robinson

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Re: Legal Tender - By Jackson Robinson

Unread post by Bikefanatic »

The US is embossed, it didn't look bad. The Chinese deck has a little cute holographic title, embossing on the back and that's it. The front of could use a lil' "something", it looks too plain.

I haven't opened them but based on the not so bad looking tucks, these would've been better priced at $12.
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Re: Legal Tender - By Jackson Robinson

Unread post by theCapraAegagrus »

Am I the only one that doesn't have any problems with the handling of these decks..? I don't collect cards for the primary purposes of cardistry or illusion, but I'm also no amateur. Are they as good as 1st Quality USPCC decks? No, but they feel medium-quality EPCC to me. They're definitely not the worst decks that I've ever handled (not even close). I can probably agree that they're the worst JR designed decks at handling, though.

If these came with deck seals they'd probably be a Grade-A project for me. Still really bummed about that. I would still pay $16-20 for these.

Edit: I did finally catch the embossed-foil detail on the US deck that was alluded to. Seems like a tuck-foiling problem because the outside design matches the embossed pattern. Honestly doesn't matter to me. As a collector: Sealed tuck matches the embossing. Doesn't affect display. As a player: Doesn't affect cards or disrupt storage.

Overall a :ucstar: :ucstar: :ucstar: :ucstar: :halfstar: for me.

Had the tuck seals been included and US tuck felt less cheap I would give it 5-stars.
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Re: Legal Tender - By Jackson Robinson

Unread post by guru »

flashcards wrote:I know volume is an issue but if my project isn't worth producing at least 1,000 decks, I'm not sure I'd even bother. Of course, if I didn't care about quality, I'd just use MPC but then, in that case, even I wouldn't buy my own cards.
This reeks of an anchoring bias I believe. Why 1000? Is it because UPSCC, LPCC, EPCC are offering 1000 decks as a minimum print run? I can't see any other reason. It is not just about being economical for me but working with the printer directly makes me understand a no. of things and gain knowledge while being in control of some other variables like regular comms, faster production lead time and interface with other vendors like gilding partner, fulfillment etc., it put me at ease. Do remember that Expert, Legends etc. also started from somewhere. If I take your reasoning and extrapolate it to retail stores, then what you're saying is that no one should dare start a small mom & pop shop nowadays because they are not Walmart, Amazon etc.

I've seen your 1000 decks comments a no. of times in this forum and I can't change your perspective or thinking but we all have options. You are exercising yours, I'm exercising mine. We may agree to disagree but both of us have one common thread in between us, which is a passion for decks.....Isn't it?

If it is okay for backers/buyers to wait indefinitely for decks or irregular comms, non-responsiveness or even certain small expectations like a project creator must have done his/her homework which sometimes aren't fulfilled (as seen on a no.of projects here), I can just wish more power to them.
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Re: Legal Tender - By Jackson Robinson

Unread post by sinjin7 »

I spoke to Jackson and he confirmed to me the cards were made in China. He told me he worked closely with Bill Kalush on this project and felt Bill did a great job with the quality of the Legal Tender decks. I told him the quality of my decks were the worst I've seen yet from EPCC and that the cards clumped horribly and literally could not fan until I spent 30 minutes breaking them in, and even then only got a poor, uneven fan. So here's the thing that stumps me: Jackson sent me a picture of him holding a U.S. Legal Tender deck he just fanned. The fan may not have been perfect (since Jackson isn't a cardist by any stretch), but it was an acceptable, fairly even fan considering his skill level. I'm not saying I'm a great cardist myself (I'm not), but I strongly suspect I can fan much better than Jackson can, and I cannot achieve the quality of fan that he showed me in his picture with the decks that I've opened.

I've spoken with a friend of mine who ordered the Legal Tender decks and he's confirmed to me his cards were extremely clumpy. I've seen enough comments here on UC and on the Legal Tender Kickstarter comments section from other backers who reported that the quality of the finish is poor to varying degrees. It makes me suspect there are serious quality control issues going on with this deck where a significant number of decks have minor to severe issues with the quality and finish, while there may be other decks that are of typical EPCC quality. If it is indeed hit or miss, then I sincerely hope the rest of you here at UC got lucky and received a good batch, because what I received is not acceptable for cardistry.

I also pointed out that the Legal Tender tucks erroneously indicate that these cards were printed in Taipei instead saying printed in China or the PRC. I recommended that he post an update about this serious discrepancy to give full disclosure and make clear he wasn't trying to intentionally mislead anyone, and I hope he follows through with this.
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Re: Legal Tender - By Jackson Robinson

Unread post by flashcards »

I don't want to derail this thread but I do want to take a minute to apologize to Sunish. I don't want there to be any acrimony between us. He has done something most us can only dream of- designing and producing an original deck of cards (soon to be two). Since I don't move in the card printing world, it was presumptuous of me to tell him how to conduct his business. In my defense I will say that, like most, I have a certain texture and production quality that I prefer. It bothers me when I see superior artwork, like Jackson's or Sunish himself, being placed on what I consider to be a medium that does not do it justice. This is short sighted and selfish thinking on my part. Sunish certainly has shown integrity in his projects and cannot be accused of using below standard printers to make a cash grab. If he says he is producing the highest quality product he can,then I will put my trust in that integrity and believe him. While I still have my reservations, which I will keep to myself from now on, I will probably end up backing the Bharata project with the hope, nay faith, that the final product will live up to its potential. Again, my apologies because, believe it or not, I am a fan and supporter. Best of luck on Bharata.

I'm not sure I can say the same about Jackson's projects at this point. I've been working with a legal tender deck and, while not the quality of a Chinese tourist deck (which I avidly collect...hypocritical much?) it is certainly not what we have seen from his work in the past.
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Re: Legal Tender - By Jackson Robinson

Unread post by JuFiN »

I didnt back his first project, Divine Art, for much the same reasons, but I did end up getting a copy of the deck, and it really is excellent. As a result I backed the white version which unfortunately didnt fund, and I have now backed Bharata and have high hopes! These are all gilded decks at a very affordable price considering.
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Re: Legal Tender - By Jackson Robinson

Unread post by Cbkimble »

I did a little searching on the KS updates but haven't found any info on the Legacy decks. Anyone know anything about when they are scheduled to ship. I have the decks but not the legacy cases.
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Re: Legal Tender - By Jackson Robinson

Unread post by PrincessTrouble »

Looks like Gio switched the card printing of SINS from the Taipei to the China EPCC factory. So I guess we'll have another data point soon (relatively) to judge the quality coming out of the China factory.
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Re: Legal Tender - By Jackson Robinson

Unread post by chach »

Got mine in the other day. I'm no cardist whatsoever, but can get a normal (for me) fan from the US deck. The China deck however clumps into about 10 different sections. Tuck boxes very underwhelming but I didn't notice any out of place embossing, though when the plastic was on there were some spots that did feel as though it was embossed, so is that what you're feeling (those that reported odd embossing).

The different colors for the suits are VERY blatant, making this deck only suitable for solitaire, uno and bridge/whist.

One thing I did notice, no weird offgassing smell like most Chinese products have. Still wouldn't want to lick them though...

Over all, for the price VERY underwhelmed. The $7 USPCC decks at Walmart are better handling. For $16 dollars or whatever the final price was, I feel burned. And I'd almost wonder if the increase was a rob Peter to pay Paul kinda thing.
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Re: Legal Tender - By Jackson Robinson

Unread post by sinjin7 »

chach wrote:Got mine in the other day. I'm no cardist whatsoever, but can get a normal (for me) fan from the US deck. The China deck however clumps into about 10 different sections. Tuck boxes very underwhelming but I didn't notice any out of place embossing, though when the plastic was on there were some spots that did feel as though it was embossed, so is that what you're feeling (those that reported odd embossing).
If you look at the eagle on the font of the tuck, you'll see a 2016 date banner next to the eagle's wings that is embossed (I'll leave the irony of the 2016 date alone...). When you look at the eagle on the back design, you'll see two eagles (to make it a two-way back design) but there are no date banners next to the eagles' wings. But when you look closely, you'll see an empty, out-of-place embossing of the 2016 date banner that's still there. Obviously, Jackson just duplicated the embossing pattern from the front of the tuck onto the back but forgot to take into account that there's no date banner next to the wings on the back design and failed to remove the embossing. It's not that major or even very noticeable, but for someone who claims to put out only the most excellent quality (and charges for it), better quality control should've been in place.

My U.S. Legal Tender deck clumped into about 10 chunks, but the Chinese deck I opened was slightly better and clumped into about 15 chunks. But with you getting a normal quality U.S. deck but bad Chinese deck just goes to show we're getting very inconsistent quality control out of these decks printed in China.
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Re: Legal Tender - By Jackson Robinson

Unread post by chach »

Ok yeah, I see exactly what you're saying now. Very blatant.
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Re: Legal Tender - By Jackson Robinson

Unread post by EndersGame »

What's is the official name for the finish used by EPCC on the China-produced Legal Tender deck, and is this printed on the tuck box at all?

Is it one of their two new finishes (JN Finish or Stud Finish), which they describe in this thread as follows:
JN Finish: The new JN Finish. This represents our constant efforts to duplicate the venerable Jerry's Nugget Casino cards from the '70s. Probably we, nor maybe anyone else, can get closer. These are very similar to the Master Finish cards that are so popular but these are crushed .01mm thinner and you can feel it.
Stud Finish: Our new Stud Finish. Very soft and pliable. We think they are the softest high quality cards on the market today.


Or is it called a different finish again?
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Re: Legal Tender - By Jackson Robinson

Unread post by vasta41 »

I recall E explaining that their original 1800 series decks fanned like absolute crap due to the excess ink used in the design so you may be onto something there. I'm not saying that's the reason and I'm also not saying that I take E's word as gospel (I'm not that bold) but there is precedence.
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Re: Legal Tender - By Jackson Robinson

Unread post by chach »

EndersGame wrote: JN Finish: The new JN Finish. This represents our constant efforts to duplicate the venerable Jerry's Nugget Casino cards from the '70s. Probably we, nor maybe anyone else, can get closer. These are very similar to the Master Finish cards that are so popular but these are crushed .01mm thinner and you can feel it.



I know this isn't you, Enders, but I gotta call out the marketing people on this line of BS. The thickness of a human hair is on average .04mm - .1mm. So they're saying you can tell the difference between two items where the thickness of the two is a fraction of the width of a human hair.

Wouldn't the difference between the two decks be .52mm??? I guess that would be plausible, because you could technically tell the difference with a set of calipers, but seriously? I think they're splitting hairs with their statements here.
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Re: Legal Tender - By Jackson Robinson

Unread post by Bruno »

Skateboards.
Don't fit in the standard tuck ....
No-where do they mention the maker on said tuck.
But, on the project page, you may go cross eyed in the attempt to ignore the same maker reference.
Skateboards. They're great, mate, I loves 'em to bits .... and I love how they don't need to say who the heck printed the suckers if they don't wish to, afterwards.
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Re: Legal Tender - By Jackson Robinson

Unread post by flashcards »

I just received my Hello Tiki deck. The creator was very up front about printing in China and I was skeptical. However, the cards feel pretty much like the Taiwan produced cards of EPCC/LPCC. The are head and shoulders above the quality of Legal Tender. I'm not sure if is the stock or finish but it makes me question even more if Jackson got lesser quality materials as a cost cutting measure or used a different printer since it is obvious that at least one Chinese printer can produce a quality product.
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Re: Legal Tender - By Jackson Robinson

Unread post by sms69x »

So today I received my Legal Tender order.... What can I say... Can't regret more buying this CRAP... And the worst of it, it wasn't CHEAP, I paid a HIGH price for couple of pieces of crap... Well done JR, a great way to cash in money.. Would love to know the profit he got on these, as it must have been over $8-$10 per deck...

Let me start by saying the artwork is good, inline with Federal 52, but not as good, in my opinion. But this alone doesn't justify the price paid for these.
The tuck box is so flimsy that I was afraid to rip it when I opned the box... And the "embossing" is barely noticeable. At least the almost inexistent foil is very shiny!
The cards fell like plastic, and of course. as mentioned, you can't do shit with them, other than play, but even for that those aren't that good, because of the background colors.
The conjunction of stock and finish makes the artwork look dull, it doesn't pop. So even the good aspect of these cards is shaded by the poor quality of stock/finish/printing....

I can't help myself but copying JR from the KS page
It is my hope with Legal Tender to take what I have learned from all of the lessons and experiences over those years and create the finest deck of playing cards the I can create
How far is this from the truth... Probabily the last deck I'll ever get from Jack$on Robin$on (this project proves me that he is in the business ONLY for the $$$)

PS: Did I missed the update where he mentioned that he wouldn't include the numbered seals anymore? Because on Update 8 he says he will be including numbered seals, and I can't find anywhere else where he says the opposite..
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Re: Legal Tender - By Jackson Robinson

Unread post by EndersGame »

guru wrote:Though this doesn't appear to be the usual work done by Expert but calling the decks printed in China to be of substandard quality is unfair ... we, still, shouldn't brand all decks printed in China of low quality with the only reason of getting decks printed there is lower cost than available elsewhere even when compared with Taiwan.

I'm getting my decks printed from China and it affects my market ... This deck may be an outlier and I'm sure other decks like Jody's TITANS Robber Baron will change your perception soon .
I look forward to seeing how your deck turns out Sunish! It's largely a matter of doing your research carefully beforehand, and I know you are quite dedicated and diligent in that respect.

Just to set the record straight on one small point here - Jody Eklund's TITANS deck was printed in Taiwan, not China, and was done by Legends in their usual Classic finish, as he himself posted here.
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Re: Legal Tender - By Jackson Robinson

Unread post by guru »

EndersGame wrote:
guru wrote:Though this doesn't appear to be the usual work done by Expert but calling the decks printed in China to be of substandard quality is unfair ... we, still, shouldn't brand all decks printed in China of low quality with the only reason of getting decks printed there is lower cost than available elsewhere even when compared with Taiwan.

I'm getting my decks printed from China and it affects my market ... This deck may be an outlier and I'm sure other decks like Jody's TITANS Robber Baron will change your perception soon .
I look forward to seeing how your deck turns out Sunish! It's largely a matter of doing your research carefully beforehand, and I know you are quite dedicated and diligent in that respect.

Just to set the record straight on one small point here - Jody Eklund's TITANS deck was printed in Taiwan, not China, and was done by Legends in their usual Classic finish, as he himself posted here.
Yes, fingers crossed on that. If everything goes well, fulfillment may start in 2 weeks from now. Anyways, Jody had planned it initially with the printer in China as seen on the Kickstarter project page. I think he mentioned that he faced some issues (don't remember what where they) and switched it to Taiwan. Jody was kind enough to share his China fulfillment partner details with me though as I was also looking to evaluate fulfillment partners around that time.
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Re: Legal Tender - By Jackson Robinson

Unread post by 52JokesandCounting »

Anyone had any success contacting Jackson lately? I had been trying to get in contact but he doesn't seems to respond to my email.

I returned the legal tender decks, and it already arrived for almost a month, but when I asked Delanie and Jackson I didn't get any reply. This is disappointing... i wanted to use the money else where, but now I'm not sure if I will be getting it back..
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Re: Legal Tender - By Jackson Robinson

Unread post by chach »

Sad how Jack$on is pretty much a modern day Icarus. I know I won't be backing his board game he's planning.
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Re: Legal Tender - By Jackson Robinson

Unread post by Räpylätassu »

Just got my Legal Tender pair. I honestly thought that the talk of the poor quality was over exaggerated. Yeah... It's not. The tuck box feels horrible. The cards are usable I guess but they just feel cheap.

The Chinese one looks kinda cool, I honestly think that the American one is nothing that special.
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Re: Legal Tender - By Jackson Robinson

Unread post by Cardians »

Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't the legacy editions supposed to be in-layed with a 2" coin within the wooden box?

I see a pair on eBay that clearly shows nothing as what was promised during the campaign.
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Re: Legal Tender - By Jackson Robinson

Unread post by Cbkimble »

Cardians wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't the legacy editions supposed to be in-layed with a 2" coin within the wooden box?

I see a pair on eBay that clearly shows nothing as what was promised during the campaign.
Just checked the campaign and it doesn't show anything with a coin inlaid. Jackson of course could've deleted images but I don't recall anything about that.
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Re: Legal Tender - By Jackson Robinson

Unread post by shermjack »

Cbkimble wrote:
Cardians wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't the legacy editions supposed to be in-layed with a 2" coin within the wooden box?

I see a pair on eBay that clearly shows nothing as what was promised during the campaign.
Just checked the campaign and it doesn't show anything with a coin inlaid. Jackson of course could've deleted images but I don't recall anything about that.
Update No 8 states that the regular decks would receive a custom numbered seal (which they do not) and the Legacy's would have the dealer coin inlaid in the case (which it is not). :cry:

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Re: Legal Tender - By Jackson Robinson

Unread post by alric »

Did Jack$on just forget that he made these upgrade promises? Seriously, he thinks he can just get away with all this by just quoting a few Bible verses and not offer even as much as an explanation or apology? No holographic foil, no regular foil, no custom deck seal, no coin inlaid on the Legacy boxes, and not printed where he says they're printed. This is probably the biggest bait and switch ever for a Kickstarter deck. I love this quote in his Update, which he did in bold and italicized font:

"These upgrades will be at NO extra cost!"

Jack$on really worked us to hook us in, and then he yanked all the special features and upgrades after he got our money. Of course they would be at NO extra cost - because there would be NO upgrades. What a f@cking tool!
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Re: Legal Tender - By Jackson Robinson

Unread post by theCapraAegagrus »

This isn't the campaign that did it, for me, but sadly I won't be collecting any of his future decks.

It's actually kinda poetic, only because of my numeric OCD, that I own exactly 36 (3 bricks) of his designs:

Federal 52, Gold Certificate, Silver Certificate, Reserve Note, Black Reserve Note (5)
Sherlock, Moriarty, Hound of the Baskervilles, Baker Street, Limited Baker Street (10)
52+ Joker Gold & 52+ Joker Silver (12)
Continental, Crown, Continental Limited, & Crown Limited (16)
Army, Silver Arrow Black, Silver Arrow White, & Silver Arrow Poker (20)
Scarlett Gilded, Emerald Gilded, Black Diamond, & Pearl Gilded Tally-Hos (24)
Wasteland, Desert Ranger, Texas Gilded, Liberty Gilded (28)
Crazy 8's, Crazy 8's Limited, Legal Tender USA, Legal Tender China (32)
Skull & Bones, Skull & Bones Phantom (34)
Arthurian Excalibur & Arthurian Camelot (Not in hand yet - 36)

Of all these decks, the Army and Crazy 8's (both) are the only ones I don't absolutely love. I have almost no interest in the Intaglio design(s) and "retooling" his first deck design just screams "career killer" for me. I think he's run out of ideas and is now trying to follow a Lotrek path where he applies new techniques/technologies. The problem with that is Lotrek keeps coming up with absolutely gorgeous overall packages. His artwork is ICONic. He is one of the most progressive players in the playing card Design AND Manufacturing business.

It's a sad thought since he, along with Ellusionist, sparked my passion for collecting. 33 great decks is a phenomenal career, though.
rousselle wrote:You are a fussy, picky guy.
Lotrek wrote:Given the number of morons produced in the world every day, a pessimist is actually a well informed realist.
Räpylätassu wrote:"Tyhmyydestä sakotetaan." You get fined for being stupid.
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Azid
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Re: Legal Tender - By Jackson Robinson

Unread post by Azid »

I'm still waiting to get my Legal Tender decks... more than a year !
Wrote in the comment section of the project.... no reaction.
Wrote a PM on Kickstarter to Jackson.... no reaction.
And i'm not the alone with this problems, but he is active on Kickstarter and launched 2 campaigns since fulfillment of the Legal Tender decks started.

After all the changes he did after the project ended (holographic foil, printing in China, almost a half year delay....What a disaster!!) it seems i get nothing.
VERY VERY disappointing !! This was the last Jackson Robinson project for me as a backer.
If i like any of his future decks, i will get it from a reseller for a higher price. At least i know what i'm getting.
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JacksonRobinson
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Re: Legal Tender - By Jackson Robinson

Unread post by JacksonRobinson »

Yes, It has been almost been more than 2 years since this project ended but I wanted to come to this thread and speak openly and honestly about a specific issue that happened on this project. There were a lot of things that went wrong and very few things that went right with this project. Because of that, I pissed a lot of people off here on this forum and sadly probably ruined my reputation and respect some people had for me. All of the foiling and delays aside I wanted to address one specific issue and try to give you insight on what happened and express to you that no mal-intent was intended.

During the production of the Legal Tender both the cards and the tuck case, were originally planned and scheduled to be printed in Taipae. Well into the project if not after the factory in Taiwan made EPCC aware that they were not going to do the foiling. This issue led to EPCC switching the printing of the cards to a Mainland factory. However, the tuck cases had already been printed and the project was already extremely delayed. I chose to continue with production of the cards on the mainland.

When all was complete the Cards that were printed in China were placed in a box that said Printed in Taipae. The box was printed in Taipae but that didn't make it right for me to put the Chinese cards into the Taiwanese box.

I in no way meant to mislead miss represent myself or my product to anyone and I am very sorry if it did. This issue was brought to my attention by supporters who were simply looking out for my well being. Even if it is two years later I wanted to attempt to make the scar on my reputation right with you guys who support me and what I do.

If any of you would like to discuss this specific matter with me in more detail please fill free to email me at jackson@kingswildproject.com
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pstaehlin
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Re: Legal Tender - By Jackson Robinson

Unread post by pstaehlin »

Jackson, you seem to be an honest and straightforward man of good character. I shall say this; keep doing as you are and don't take others defecation. Good day, sir. :ugking:
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