Siren's Deck- OCM playing cards - relaunch soon

[RandyButterfield]

Hi Bill,

Thanks for the apology!! I also apologize and say I'm Sorry for all of my part of the negative back-and-forth between us. I'm usually a quiet and low-key type of guy, so this controversy has been weighing heavy on my mind. I'm glad it's over!

Thanks, Randy



I want to take a minute to elaborate on the pricing for the White Grinders Deck. The highest per Deck price I charged during the campaign was $32 (well under $45 or $50). The $32 price also included FREE U.S. Shipping.

The combination of the extremely low 500 print quantity (half of the usual 1,000 minimum for the LPCC and EPCC printer), and all of the printing features equaled out to over $10.00 per Deck for production costs. Below are the the lower price tiers from the campaign:

$14 (Free U.S. Shipping) - 1 Copper Deck
$14 (Free U.S. Shipping) - 1 Blue Deck
$24 (Free U.S. Shipping) - 1 Copper Deck and 1 Blue Deck
$32 (Free U.S. Shipping) - 1 White Deck
$40 (Free U.S. Shipping) - 1 White Deck and 1 Copper Deck (2 Decks total)
$50 (Free U.S. Shipping) - 1 White Deck, 1 Copper Deck and 1 Blue Deck (3 Decks total)

The price for the White Deck is reduced as the Tiers go higher, and have more Copper and Blue Decks added into the mix.

[billdragon]

Hi Bill,

Thanks for the apology!! I also apologize and say I'm Sorry for all of my part of the negative back-and-forth between us. I'm usually a quiet and low-key type of guy, so this controversy has been weighing heavy on my mind. I'm glad it's over!

Thanks, Randy



I want to take a minute to elaborate on the pricing for the White Grinders Deck. The highest per Deck price I charged during the campaign was $32 (well under $45 or $50). The $32 price also included FREE U.S. Shipping.

The combination of the extremely low 500 print quantity (half of the usual 1,000 minimum for the LPCC and EPCC printer), and all of the printing features equaled out to over $10.00 per Deck for production costs. Below are the the lower price tiers from the campaign:

$14 (Free U.S. Shipping) - 1 Copper Deck
$14 (Free U.S. Shipping) - 1 Blue Deck
$24 (Free U.S. Shipping) - 1 Copper Deck and 1 Blue Deck
$32 (Free U.S. Shipping) - 1 White Deck
$40 (Free U.S. Shipping) - 1 White Deck and 1 Copper Deck (2 Decks total)
$50 (Free U.S. Shipping) - 1 White Deck, 1 Copper Deck and 1 Blue Deck (3 Decks total)

The price for the White Deck is reduced as the Tiers go higher, and have more Copper and Blue Decks added into the mix.

thanks bud. I guess its not so bad, we get to talk again and work it all out
and yes, I got the explanation for the legend gold holographic foil from taiwan, that is true.

I look forward for the better chats and cooperations between us in the future

[Mike Ratledge]

Yep the letter ä is a letter used in Finnish language and not in a very many other languages.

Well, let's say "Scandinavian" and not many others. In general, it's a double "a", like the real surname of "Floki" in the History series "Vikings" which is "Skasgaard" if literally translated to English. In Dansk (Danish) or (Swedish) and obviously Finnish as well. In Swedish, it's written as "Skarsgärd".

I did a very deep reflection today. and thinking back. I realized I own mike and everyone an explanation.
guys, please feel free to make more comment on my comment wall for questions.

but see the below comment

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/15 ... s/comments..


I am going to close this post now and move to a new one. beucase i believe everyone needs to see my apology

http://www.unitedcardists.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=8474" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

thank you admin mike ,for helping me link the things, so everyone can see I wasn't sure how to do that

You're fine, Bill! I already posted on your wall my thoughts as well. We just misunderstood each others intent, which is easy to do when English is not your native language. Strictly speaking, mine I guess would be Danish though, I was born as a military brat into a family shortly after WW2 at the State Department's København outpost in Danmark.

I've lived in my father's hometown of Charleston South Carolina since before I can remember, taking a trip to Danmark is something new to me, even though I have relatives "over there".

I used to get upset with the writers of "Vikings" because they take too many liberties with the script: for example an "earl" in Danmark is a "jarl" - always has been, no such thing as an earl. People notice when I occasionally slip up and fail to capitalize words, like "hr Mikel Ratledge" because in Danish many words we consider "proper nouns" in English don't get capitalized (hr = "Mr." in English).

[MagikFingerz]

Yep the letter ä is a letter used in Finnish language and not in a very many other languages.

Well, let's say "Scandinavian" and not many others. In general, it's a double "a", like the real surname of "Floki" in the History series "Vikings" which is "Skasgaard" if literally translated to English. In Dansk (Danish) or (Swedish) and obviously Finnish as well. In Swedish, it's written as "Skarsgärd".

Sorry to keep sidetracking this thread, but I have to correct you, Mike.

[puts Viking helmet on]

The two dots above a's and o's (exclusive to Swedish and Finnish) are actually (originally) small e's on top of them, making ä = ae and ö = oe (æ/Æ and ø/Ø in Norwegian and Danish). The double a is what would have been a small circle above an a (å/Å), which is used by the Scandinavian countries only.

Additionally, "Scandinavia" only consists of Norway, Denmark and Sweden. To include Finland and Iceland you'd have to say "the Nordic countries".

[billdragon]

LOL, hahahahaha. aw man. moderator magik

you know i always really loved it when admin mike tell me history. last time he told me about american collector's club and joker 52, it was really respectable.

and wow, I did Not know that you are dannish and born after WW2. sigh... ok here the truth.

I am only 24.............prob explains my inexperience.
I am born in xuzhou in china, now lives in toronto canada.

(puts on helmet) can't find a viking helmet

[RichK]

I used to get upset with the writers of "Vikings" because they take too many liberties with the script: for example an "earl" in Danmark is a "jarl" - always has been, no such thing as an earl. People notice when I occasionally slip up and fail to capitalize words, like "hr Mikel Ratledge" because in Danish many words we consider "proper nouns" in English don't get capitalized (hr = "Mr." in English).

Mike,

A friend of mine, big Viking historian buff, wrote a fictional novel with"jarl" in it and I had to ask her 'what is a jarl?' so I can understand why the tv show went with "earl" since most people understand the rank of "Earl" in royalty terms.

Nice info on the non capitalization of Danish proper nouns too. Who said playing card discussion can't be learning tools for other languages/countries?

[jerichoholic]

Don't look now but someone else has "stolen" White Gold

[billdragon]

I guess its a popular name. oh well. (yea, I saw the snakes tuck, its really cool) I only named it WG because the paper I used is apparently called that.


btw, my project is funded guys. I thought I let everyone know here. thanks guys

Also, we never even got to talk about any artistic criticism for my art or deck itself. feel free to fire me some thoughts on that.

[montecarlojoe]

Haha - yeah - White and Gold is a very popular and clean looking combination. It's not unheard of for very large corporations to trademark a colour (for instance Cadbury purple or UPS brown) - but you have to be HUGE and the related branding ubiquitous. And even then in most cases the colour would have to be used in a mistakable context to be in breach.

I don't think anyone would argue the art as bad by any means - I like it a lot in general, and the aces look superb (the high saturateion colours against the earthy palette could have jarred somewhat - but I think it works, especially given the coloured highlights elsewhere in the deck).

One thing I wasn't keen on - and it may be limited to the promotional art, but the big-eyed chibi look isn't for me - what seems to be a realistic high-fantasy deck becomes a bit cartoony.
(Don't get me wrong I like manga and anime styles in the right context - I just don't feel it works here)

However I DO like the pencil style art, and the level of detail is great.

One other criticism is the design of the back of the cards, and courts - they are one-way designs - traditionally these designs are two way (i.e. it doesn't matter which way up you hold the card it looks the same). Clearly this isn't a deal breaker on an art based deck - but it does make it less attractive for magic, cardistry, fanning and some games. (The reason being that after a shuffle or series of cuts some cards will be upside-down and the deck can look messy; and "cheating" - or accusations of cheating - is easier in magic and games if you can obviously turn certain cards around in the deck)

I don't think there's any reason to change anything now this far through the campaign - but hopefully you'll find some of this feedback useful.

[billdragon]

Haha - yeah - White and Gold is a very popular and clean looking combination. It's not unheard of for very large corporations to trademark a colour (for instance Cadbury purple or UPS brown) - but you have to be HUGE and the related branding ubiquitous. And even then in most cases the colour would have to be used in a mistakable context to be in breach.

I don't think anyone would argue the art as bad by any means - I like it a lot in general, and the aces look superb (the high saturateion colours against the earthy palette could have jarred somewhat - but I think it works, especially given the coloured highlights elsewhere in the deck).

One thing I wasn't keen on - and it may be limited to the promotional art, but the big-eyed chibi look isn't for me - what seems to be a realistic high-fantasy deck becomes a bit cartoony.
(Don't get me wrong I like manga and anime styles in the right context - I just don't feel it works here)

However I DO like the pencil style art, and the level of detail is great.

One other criticism is the design of the back of the cards, and courts - they are one-way designs - traditionally these designs are two way (i.e. it doesn't matter which way up you hold the card it looks the same). Clearly this isn't a deal breaker on an art based deck - but it does make it less attractive for magic, cardistry, fanning and some games. (The reason being that after a shuffle or series of cuts some cards will be upside-down and the deck can look messy; and "cheating" - or accusations of cheating - is easier in magic and games if you can obviously turn certain cards around in the deck)

I don't think there's any reason to change anything now this far through the campaign - but hopefully you'll find some of this feedback useful.

yea, for sure. I did notice a lot of WG names popping up after my first campaign. its quite a common used name.

ohhhh, I see. I didn't know about the fact that back face also matters in up and down, that's a very solid point. I am going to remember that.

Yes, I also agree with you. on avoiding cartoony things. Cards should generate a feeling more towards mature-ish. If its too chidish, you can't play it on the table. lol, it would be kind of funny.

I guess so far I am ok, since I only kept the bigger eye things to promotional arts and posters. But thank you for solifying that point for me.

Thank you moderator monte, for your inputs

[jerichoholic]

Wow, after all the drama this ends up cancelled?

[Mike Ratledge]

Wow, after all the drama this ends up cancelled?

As much as Bill / Jian knew about cards, the end of the campaign was finding out that Expert PCC would not print decks of only 500 units.

hmmm....

[billdragon]

I know. that's what I thought too. I was like you gotta be kidding me, I was totally ready to place orders.

I think veeve reminded me a few days ago about min orders. but I am not sure why my brain didn't go that direction to think further.
In fact, I am not sure why my brain totally missed this huge error until now.

So, I took a day to rest and read up everything on mpc. I think I am gonna have to go with them but do submit artwork first.
(oh man, I am prob like the most troublesome rookie on uc now meeting 3 hovics on first project)

if you guys have any warnning for me for printing on mpc or anything I should be aware of. please do leave me a comment.

[52JokesandCounting]

I am not too keen with MPC deck yet... I am guessing you will be losing some backers

[billdragon]

yea, me too. they print in guangdong, dg productions, I heard its not as accurate as the taiwan printed ones (epcc, lpcc)
I sent them a message but I still havn't heard from them yet in 3 days. I am going to call npcc later to check their info.

not a lot of choice to figure this out. its like


uspcc-----half states printed,half china printed
epcc/lpcc------taiwan/china printed
npcc------europe? or china? need confirm

self printed---canadian northview print factory,imported paper from europe/states

eitherway, I will post a preview link and exclus. images for new editions on uc later int he week, to see if anyone can help me inspect the situation.

[Talisman]

Jian, don't be afraid to ask questions here. This is the place for that with many here that have a wealth of information about the playing card companies worldwide. Hey just ask Mike (admin) or Jarl Ratledge...same guy (inside joke between him and I) he comes from aristocracy...blue blood. Anyways, all kidding aside he knows a lot or knows who to ask. Why do you think he's running things here?

Edit: There are quite a few members here that have direct contact with some at the playing card companies.

[sms69x]

npcc------europe? or china? need confirm

Printer is located in Ukraine.

I wouldn't consider these, I receive my Chivalry decks which were printed by NPCC, but the quality is bad. The tuck is excelent and the artwork is also great (with metallic ink it is even greater) but the quality of the stock is very bad.

[PrincessTrouble]

npcc------europe? or china? need confirm

Printer is located in Ukraine.

I wouldn't consider these, I receive my Chivalry decks which were printed by NPCC, but the quality is bad. The tuck is excelent and the artwork is also great (with metallic ink it is even greater) but the quality of the stock is very bad.

I agree. I pledged for the Chivalry when it was going to be printed by LPCC. After the campaign ended, they switched to NPCC. I really wanted the Legends deck. The NPCC cards are crappy.

[billdragon]

thank you tail,sms, moderator princess ( >.> aristocracy + blue blood+viking. dammm, admin too badass )

Sorry to hear about chilvary deck. that is really d*** move, some one actually switched printer AFTER the campaign!??? wow
Lpcc to npcc is huge in difference from stock to printing.

I wont contact npcc then, doesn't feels reliable. and I care alot about paper quality, don't like bad stocks. thank you sms.

I got replies from yuki at mpc, I will most likely go with them. They are very transparent with price and printing locations. seems like nice bunch of people too


p.s I saw mike's post on his noveau deck. omg, he actually pinpointed the ship that ships the card from taiwan >.< so amazing professional,dam. hahaha

[Talisman]

Guys correct me if I'm wrong, but MPC is used mostly by playing card creators for prototype decks since they can print as low as 1 deck if you want. They do this to get an idea of what the deck would look like before they go ahead and get it printed from one of the big printing companies.

[sms69x]

Guys correct me if I'm wrong, but MPC is used mostly by playing card creators for prototype decks since they can print as low as 1 deck if you want. They do this to get an idea of what the deck would look like before they go ahead and get it printed from one of the big printing companies.

This is true, but they also have produced their own decks, and some very interesting, checkout the Impressions playing Cards series, for the innovation they put in, the cards are actually pretty decent.

[jsantafe]

That's quite a frequent debate: is NPCC better quality than MPC?

[Talisman]

That's quite a frequent debate: is NPCC better quality than MPC?

I just read an article earlier this morning on this on PlayingCardForum, and from there it was said NPCC is not better than MPC

[jerichoholic]

I agree with that, I think MPC is better. NPCC cards tend to stick together when spreading and fanning, I believe because of an edge left on the faces from cutting. MPC doesn't have this problem and the cards handle fine.

[NoirArts]

Because of the debates regarding our and MPC's cardstock, we would like to inform everyone that NPCC uses EXACTLY THE SAME 310 gsm linen German black core paper (just compare Chivalry/Indictus/Nipponia with corresponding MPC deck)


"http://www.makeplayingcards.com/design/ ... -card.html

310gsm German master quality card stock with black core (linen air finish) -Minimum order quantity of 1000 required for this option"

and a few words about playingcardforum.com :
it contains very few feedbacks, and only on our early decks. There is no up-to-date info on our latest projects.


We constantly working to improve quality, from deck to deck, as well as offer more exclusive features for the decks to be really unique. Didn't want to jump forward and reveal, but our next major improvement will be with new coating. We are currently testing and choosing new coating formula, which will feel much better than current one.

best regards
Roman

[jerichoholic]

What stock did you guys use on the Defunctorums? Those were pretty similar to USPC imo and then wasn't used again.

[NoirArts]

What stock did you guys use on the Defunctorums? Those were pretty similar to USPC imo and then wasn't used again.

If you compare Defunctorum and Nipponia, you can note the following differences:
1. Card stock type: 295gsm on Defunctorum vs 310gsm for Nipponia
2. Look: Nipponia is slightly thicker
3. Feel: Defunctorum is slightly softer than Nipponia
4. Handling: in order for Nipponia to achieve the same/better handling as Defunctorum - you'd need to shuffle them a bit.The more you do so, the better it handles. Yes, we are aware about this detail. The reason is that we had to replace one of the coating components due to manufacturer's certification and regulatory issues.

And, as I said in my previous post, after the tests we are going to update coating formula for better handling and avoid this "shuffle-thing".

[sms69x]

Because of the debates regarding our and MPC's cardstock, we would like to inform everyone that NPCC uses EXACTLY THE SAME 310 gsm linen German black core paper (just compare Chivalry/Indictus/Nipponia with corresponding MPC deck)

The stock maybe the same but the finish or coating is very different. MPC decks fan ok right out of the box, while NPCC's don't, and here I'm refering the Chivalry deck, which fans very poorly. Maybe, as you said, it's needed to shuffle the deck several times in order for it to fan and handle better, but I rarely use my decks too much, so I can only tell the experience with decks as they are right out of the box!

[billdragon]

a la. whats going on here. someone from npcc came. [BACON]

yea, actually when my Canadian mate there said something about npcc deck not able to fan properly because of a edge cut. I suspected it might be the coating instead as I myself do have good knowledge in professional printing/cutting with industrial level printers. thank you for clearing that part for us, noir

coating can be a big concern as it directly effects the ink outputs and the state of the ink that's on top of the paper. especially when temperature and printer type is involved.

I know for sure that decks produced in china or taiwan (basically china again) won't have big paper quality problems even if the production is cheap. Since china is the origin country that invented paper and printing (some history here) and the process has been very much matured. they are just really good with papers from the earliest rice papers to the newest triple coated papers,

anyways. all this aside, I am going to relaunch Tuesday Evenning Canadian est time and I will post some uc exclusive views of the abysses deck and new link. looking forward for everyone's critic. [BACON]

[NoirArts]

Hey billdragon
Yes we are here, checking out Nice project, though
Very few comments from us does not mean that we are not monitoring what's going on here, hehe

..coating can be a big concern as it directly effects the ink outputs and the state of the ink that's on top of the paper. especially when temperature and printer type is involved...

Exactly! you are absolutely right. Moreover, for very complicated graphics and highly detailed thin elements or special inks (special gold/silver or other metallics, etc.) it is required to use special additives for inks stick to paper. They affect further coating process as well as final handling feel (tons of tech things needs to be considered).

What I wanted to mention - is that we are constantly improving. And every new deck's quality is better. Better cut, better tucks, embossing, seals, and many more. You can't just start from scratch, and become the best right away. We have a goal - and working to achieve it. Constructive criticism is always valuable and appreciated.