Stocks | Finishes | Quality Grades

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Stocks | Finishes | Quality Grades

Unread post by MJF »

--- MOD EDIT---
Half of the information in this post is incorrect, read the posts below.
-------------------


So I've been scouring the web trying to find a place that basically lists out all the common card stocks and finishes. Also trying to find more information on the card Quality Grade.
Most of the information is relevant towards USPCC, but there may be other companies reflected in this information. So here's my understanding of it...

Finishes
Air Cushion - Also referred to as "Air Flow". It's the pitted surface USPCC uses so cards easily glide. ALL decks are required to say "Air Cushion" since 2004, due to USPCC's lawyers.
Linoid - Common on the Tally Ho decks, it has almost a linen texture to it.
Cambric - This one is commonly referred to as feeling like "pressed stock" - wooven surface
Ivory - Commonly referred to as Smooth, no pitted surface (so do Ivory avoid having to use "Air Cushion")
Magic - Also referred to as "Performance Coating" - special formulation that USPCC came up with and many decks now use it
Standard

Stocks (Presumably in order of increasing quality and thickness/durability)
Bicycle - Standard stock - Bicycle 325
Bicycle Casino - discontinued and no longer used
Aristocrat - A bit stiffer and thicker than Bicycle
Tally Ho - Replace with a variant of Aristocrat
Bee - Very high quality, just a grade under Bee Casino
Bee Casino - The highest quality USPCC generally has available
UV500 - Very thick durable stock that has properties that make it flourescent under UV light - no longer used due to high costs (created by Ellusionist and USPCC)

Quality Gauges (Does USPCC ship anything less than Q1)
Q1 - Perfect
Q2 - ?
Q3 - ?
Q4 - Tolerable

So am I off on any of these? Please someone correct me if I am... also this would be a great topic to add to the reference section, once we get this cleaned up...
Russell

Re: Stocks | Finishes | Quality Grades

Unread post by Russell »

This whole topic needs to be scrapped, there is a lot of incorrect statements above. When I get on my computer later today I'll drop some truth-bombs.
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Re: Stocks | Finishes | Quality Grades

Unread post by lumpyliew »

Waiting for that Russell! And any idea which stock goes best with Aristocrat / Bee Casino?
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Re: Stocks | Finishes | Quality Grades

Unread post by BMPokerworld »

lumpyliew wrote:Waiting for that Russell! And any idea which stock goes best with Aristocrat / Bee Casino?

You mean finish?

Thanks!
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Re: Stocks | Finishes | Quality Grades

Unread post by MJF »

Russell wrote:This whole topic needs to be scrapped, there is a lot of incorrect statements above. When I get on my computer later today I'll drop some truth-bombs.
But Russel, I got all this information from the internet... that's a good source right??? ;)

I'm looking forward to these truth bombs and getting this straightened out and there's tons of conflicting data online. :)

Oh and don't feel to limit it to just USPCC... if there's others, I'm interested to know...
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Re: Stocks | Finishes | Quality Grades

Unread post by alric »

I don't think most of the info posted was that far off, its just outdated. USPC used to have a range of stocks and finishes, but under the ownership of the Jardin group, I think USPC was forced to downsize/downgrade a lot and now your choices are more limited.
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Re: Stocks | Finishes | Quality Grades

Unread post by MJF »

Oh that's the other thing I should probably put out there...
I'm working on setting a playing card database (editable to the world). Obviously fields in tables would be finish, stock, etc...
So when presenting the information, please also keep in mind historical values... if it existed at one point in time and can be tied to a deck, I want to include that value in the database.

:ugeek:
Russell

Re: Stocks | Finishes | Quality Grades

Unread post by Russell »

Disclaimer: Nothing is rumor or opinion, this is all fact. Things change, this is the most up-to-date info I have. I don't care how is was in the past, this is how it is now.


Texture
Smooth/Ivory - Aviators are famous for this.
Embossed/Air-Cushion* - Paper with dimples that look like woven cloth, most Bicycle decks.

Finish
Air-Cushion* - USPCC's standard coating.
Magic - USPCC's upgraded coating.
Performance - For all intensive purposes the same thing as Magic.
Cambric/Linen/Linoid - Are technically, by definition textures (woven fabric) but have been referred to as 'Finishes' by USPCC and they are the same as Air-Cushion. Anything else is just marketing, you can pretty much call it whatever you want.
* - Air-Cushion has been officially been called a Finish and a Texture by USPCC over the years.

Stock
Bicycle, Tally-Ho, Aviator, Bee, Hornet, etc - All are 'Bicycle' paper. Yes you can have a Bee deck with 'Bicycle' paper.
Bee - Bee Grade/Bee Casino
Standard weight of 'Bicycle' paper is 300gsm not 325.
USPCC is a business, if you want different paper (such as UV500) you can order it. It will cost you an arm and a leg, but you can do it.

Quality
Q1 - There are actually two different Q1 aspects: Printing and Finishing. Q1 Finishing adds another $.50/deck.
Q2 - Hard to tell from Q1, a few more bad decks will slip though. Q2 is about $.40 less than Q1 Printing.
Q3 - Many novelty and decks for children use this.
Q4 - I don't know. 'Tolerable' can have a broad definition!

Other things:
Cards are made up of 3 layers... White Paper | Dark Blue-Purple Glue | White Paper
There is no black paper in the middle, it is actually dark blue/purple glue that turns 'black' after it hardens. Think of it as a reverse color Oreo.

Many things attribute to the outcome of how a deck feels or handles. You can't judge how good a deck is by the thickness of the cards stacked up to one another. The machine that embosses (or smooths) the paper can be set to different pressures. More pressure gives you a thinner card and makes it stiffer, less pressure gives you a thicker card and makes it a bit more bendable. Stop telling people that thicker decks are 'better', it is a personal preference.

Do you know what else doesn't effect the handling? Metallic Inks. All decks are coated in a 'plastic' finish after the ink goes on. Stop telling people that cards with metallic ink handle different, its not true.

While were on this topic of bullshit rumors, let me dispel one more. Given all else being equal (stock, texture, etc) a deck covered in all black ink handles the same as a deck with a picture of a puppy dog. For example, the Black Tigers, Hornets and the Sultan Treasury all have the same amount of ink. This 'Ink-to-Stock Ratio' was a new idea some jackass just thought of and somehow it stuck. Stop mentioning ink-to-stock ratios, you have no idea how printing presses work apparently.

The last big factor on how a card handles is the cut. The die's blade edge gets dull over time and are replaced as needed. The duller the edge that rougher the cut. There are more than one cutting machine per run of decks. When I was at the factory I saw 4 machines cutting the same design. This means you could have two decks made within a minute of each other with varying degrees of smoothness to the edge. This is why some people might love the way XXXX deck feels and others dont like it, they might have gotten a rougher edged deck. It's all completely random and there is no way to combat this.

The biggest difference in how a card handles is you and your location. Greasy hands, high humidity, and card abuse are the main factors today. USPCC sells high quality decks. Even if you opt for the 'wal-mart special' cheap deck, you will still get a deck made better than 90% of what's out there.


-------------------------
All of this information comes from my own experiences, contracts and talking with numerous employees in various departments of USPCC. Undoubtedly, I will have made a mistake somewhere. If you see something (and actually know what the smurf you are talking about) please let me know so I can update the information above.
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Re: Stocks | Finishes | Quality Grades

Unread post by MJF »

Hey Russel, thanks for the great information! Questions though, was this previously posted somewhere else? You seem to be talking to people who didn't say anything in the thread that you call out... like this...
Russell wrote:Do you know what else doesn't effect the handling? Metallic Inks. All decks are coated in a 'plastic' finish after the ink goes on. Stop telling people that cards with metallic ink handle different, its not true.

While were on this topic of bullshit rumors, let me dispel one more. Given all else being equal (stock, texture, etc) a deck covered in all black ink handles the same as a deck with a picture of a puppy dog. For example, the Black Tigers, Hornets and the Sultan Treasury all have the same amount of ink. This 'Ink-to-Stock Ratio' was a new idea some jackass just thought of and somehow it stuck. Stop mentioning ink-to-stock ratios, you have no idea how printing presses work apparently.
Another thing,
Russell wrote:Disclaimer: Nothing is rumor or opinion, this is all fact. Things change, this is the most up-to-date info I have. I don't care how is was in the past, this is how it is now.
I very much do care and am interested in knowing how it was in the past. I'm completely fascinated, as I'm sure quite a few folks here are, with the process and as you know there's not a whole lot of factual information out there on the web for this all. USPCC doesn't provide any of this information on their site either. As I mentioned early, I'm trying to design a database to keep track of playing card decks, so I do have to take into account everything. Having terms (i.e. Air Finish) that get used for various dimensions (i.e. Finish, Texture) definitely throw a wrench in that design, but can be handled correctly. :)


None-the-less, thanks for all the information, it's very helpful as I work on this little side project I hope to eventually, in the near future, setup a website that everyone can use to track their decks. :ugeek:
Russell

Re: Stocks | Finishes | Quality Grades

Unread post by Russell »

I was addressing things I have seen/heard in the past year. I wasn't specifically speaking to any one person.

I'm not the one to talk to about past knowledge of USPCC. The best resource for that is the 52+J club and their members.
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Re: Stocks | Finishes | Quality Grades

Unread post by MJF »

Cool, thanks for the information Russel!
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Re: Stocks | Finishes | Quality Grades

Unread post by alric »

@ Russell - Do you actually perform cardistry/flourishing/xcm/magic? Because I have some issues on how you reference physical characteristics of cards and their manufacturing process in relation to "handling".

First of all, how a card is cut actually has fairly little to do with "handling". Sharp blade vs. dull blade is much less important than the actual direction of cut, in other words whether the cards are traditionally cut or non-traditionally cut for cardistry purposes. The direction of the cut only affects which direction you faro the deck, that's all. Sure, some USPC deck's edges are "smoother" than others, but the variance is not significant in terms of when you faro a deck if you know what you're doing. The edges of the cards minimally affect fans, spreads, cuts, or springs.

While I agree ultimately the thickness of the cards come down to personal preference, casino-grade Bee stock is MUCH more durable than other stock, primarily due to their thickness. The pressure used to emboss the finish on the decks, and the possible effects that has on thickness and stiffness, is only relevant within stocks, and not across stocks. In other words, I don't care how much pressure you use or don't use on Bicycle stock, it still won't make it as thick or stiff as casino-grade Bee stock.

An experienced cardists puts cards through incredible physical stresses, so durability is a key concern. A deck with thinner or softer stock may be easier to manipulate initially, but it will invariably wear out faster. In my experience, if you get a deck with thicker, stiffer stock (ie: Bee) and properly break it in, then you end up with a deck that is as easy to manipulate as a softer or thinner stock, yet retain its superior durability. So in this specific criteria of durability, thicker is better for the experienced cardist.

I'm not a proponent of ink-to-stock ratio, either, since the finish is applied after the ink (regardless of how much ink is used). And metallic ink is strictly a concern for collectors only, not cardists. Having said that, there is no denying that ink saturation or color has some effect. The obvious examples are the Ghost deck versus the Black Ghost deck and the Shadow Masters deck versus the other Masters decks. Any experienced cardist will tell you there is a definite difference on how Black Ghosts or Shadow Masters feel and perform in comparison to their non-black deck counterparts, and the only difference is the black ink. So I don't know that I would be as dismissive as you are about the effect of ink on playing cards.

Finally, MJF's list of stocks and finishes is still relevant because we still have access to Ohio produced decks. So even though I appreciate the facts and accuracy of decks produced currently in Kentucky in your very informative post (and yes, I know you prefaced that your post is only relevant for today's decks), I think we still must keep in mind that there are widely differeing perspectives out there (collector vs cardist vs magician, etc..) and a lot more variety of stocks and finishes out there than what is currently being produced.

And while your referral to 52 + Jokers is an excellent referral, I would hope that people will come to UC for all things related to playing cards instead of other places. I would like to see UC evolve and grow to something more than a forum for just collectors, sellers, and deck designers.
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Re: Stocks | Finishes | Quality Grades

Unread post by MJF »

Alric, thanks for all that input as well. The information is very helpful!
alric wrote:... And while your referral to 52 + Jokers is an excellent referral, I would hope that people will come to UC for all things related to playing cards instead of other places. I would like to see UC evolve and grow to something more than a forum for just collectors, sellers, and deck designers.
I just wanted to add something to this as well. While it is wonderful we possibly have access to the breadth of knowledge that some of those collectors have, I also would like to see this site grow into THE place to come for Collecting/Cardistry/Magic. I prefer information completely open to the public, which is why I'm now working on this card database system in my spare time (what little I have).

:)
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Re: Stocks | Finishes | Quality Grades

Unread post by lumpyliew »

Yes I mean finish ... Seems like they are pretty much the same...
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Re: Stocks | Finishes | Quality Grades

Unread post by BMPokerworld »

lumpyliew wrote:Yes I mean finish ... Seems like they are pretty much the same...

No they are not the same. Stock is the paper the card is finished with. Finish is the plastic coating put on the paper.

Thanks!
Russell

Re: Stocks | Finishes | Quality Grades

Unread post by Russell »

alric wrote:While I agree ultimately the thickness of the cards come down to personal preference, casino-grade Bee stock is MUCH more durable than other stock, primarily due to their thickness. The pressure used to emboss the finish on the decks, and the possible effects that has on thickness and stiffness, is only relevant within stocks, and not across stocks. In other words, I don't care how much pressure you use or don't use on Bicycle stock, it still won't make it as thick or stiff as casino-grade Bee stock.

An experienced cardists puts cards through incredible physical stresses, so durability is a key concern. A deck with thinner or softer stock may be easier to manipulate initially, but it will invariably wear out faster. In my experience, if you get a deck with thicker, stiffer stock (ie: Bee) and properly break it in, then you end up with a deck that is as easy to manipulate as a softer or thinner stock, yet retain its superior durability. So in this specific criteria of durability, thicker is better for the experienced cardist.
I never compared the two against each other. Bee stock is obviously thicker and lasts longer.
The obvious examples are the Ghost deck versus the Black Ghost deck and the Shadow Masters deck versus the other Masters decks. Any experienced cardist will tell you there is a definite difference on how Black Ghosts or Shadow Masters feel and perform in comparison to their non-black deck counterparts, and the only difference is the black ink. So I don't know that I would be as dismissive as you are about the effect of ink on playing cards.
Black ink is as heavy as tan ink. Black ink is as 'wet' as tan ink. Anyone who tells you different is insane.
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Re: Stocks | Finishes | Quality Grades

Unread post by alric »

Russell wrote:You can't judge how good a deck is by the thickness of the cards stacked up to one another...Stop telling people that thicker decks are 'better', it is a personal preference.

While were on this topic of bullshit rumors, let me dispel one more. Given all else being equal (stock, texture, etc) a deck covered in all black ink handles the same as a deck with a picture of a puppy dog. For example, the Black Tigers, Hornets and the Sultan Treasury all have the same amount of ink. This 'Ink-to-Stock Ratio' was a new idea some jackass just thought of and somehow it stuck. Stop mentioning ink-to-stock ratios, you have no idea how printing presses work apparently.

The last big factor on how a card handles is the cut.
These were the specific three points of yours that I disagreed with. My perspective is from a cardistry perspective, I feel yours may be from a collector/deck designer perspective. So we will agree to mildy disagree. That's the great thing about UC, we can have discussions like these, and hopefully these types of discussions will bring in more people with interests other than just collecting.

I will remain comfortable telling people casino grade Bee stock is 'better' for cardistry because its thicker, stiffer, and more durable. If anyone tells you the Ghost deck handles the same as the Black Ghost deck, or if the regular Masters decks handles the same as the Shadow Masters deck (even though black ink is as heavy and "wet" as white ink or any other color ink), they're insane and have no idea about cardistry apparently. Peace.
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Re: Stocks | Finishes | Quality Grades

Unread post by PlayingCardz »

alric wrote:I will remain comfortable telling people casino grade Bee stock is 'better' for cardistry because its thicker, stiffer, and more durable. If anyone tells you the Ghost deck handles the same as the Black Ghost deck, or if the regular Masters decks handles the same as the Shadow Masters deck (even though black ink is as heavy and "wet" as white ink or any other color ink), they're insane and have no idea about cardistry apparently. Peace.
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Re: Stocks | Finishes | Quality Grades

Unread post by Montag »

This post is greatly instructive. Is there a way to star posts here on UC ? I would like to keep this post for further referral purposes.
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Re: Stocks | Finishes | Quality Grades

Unread post by Russell »

Russell wrote:You can't judge how good a deck is by the thickness of the cards stacked up to one another...Stop telling people that thicker decks are 'better', it is a personal preference.

When I said that I wasnt talking about casino vs standard paper. I meant standard vs standard. I'll edit my above post to clarify.
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Re: Stocks | Finishes | Quality Grades

Unread post by dazzleguts »

One thing about the ink thing.
As someone who does fine art printing (etching, relief etc), and who has done commercial printing set-up, I feel compelled to mention that when printing on white paper the white areas of an image are an absence of ink. So if you make a deck with a white background there is actually much less ink involved than with a black deck.

I can't speak as to whether this makes a difference in handling.
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