Top Collections - 'number of decks' and 'unique decks'

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Top Collections - 'number of decks' and 'unique decks'

Unread postby ecNate » Tue Sep 16, 2014 5:49 pm  

Just also saw the new About section and all the statistics. Nice addition!

I think the Top Collection should also have 2 components like the Popular Decks and Number Owned are broken out. I know this was mentioned as a comment some place before, but currently it simply counts the total quantity owned. I propose you modify the current 'Top Collections' to be 'Top Collections (Total Quantity)' and add a new 'Top Collections (Unique Decks)'. You already have this now broken out in the individual collection totals, so this would be the next logical step.

Thanks! This is really becoming a real solution for myself and others, great to see the database and users growing!
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Re: Top Collections - 'number of decks' and 'unique decks'

Unread postby montecarlojoe » Tue Sep 16, 2014 7:27 pm  

I agree - there needs to be some kind of ranking algorithm in there somewhere. Owning 10,000 flimsy bike knock-offs shouldn't get you to the top spot!

Uniqueness is key I think : the second or third deck shouldn't be worth the same as the first; the more limited a deck is the more it is worth.

e.g.

Value of multimples of a deck= (4/PI).arctan(Decks) {1 deck = 1, Infinite decks = 2}

Value of Limited deck = 10000/number {unlimited set to 10000; so an unlimited deck is worth 1. A deck from an edition of 200 is worth 50}

there will be better scales but you get the idea!
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Re: Top Collections - 'number of decks' and 'unique decks'

Unread postby ecNate » Tue Sep 16, 2014 7:43 pm  

Or just have 2 lists of quantity in total and unique. Keep it simple. :-)

That formula sounds like a v12.0 upgrade and would be as you said a new 'value' ranking, but then should include current after market price, condition, etc. Could get messy, but maybe interesting someday.
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Re: Top Collections - 'number of decks' and 'unique decks'

Unread postby iDoctor » Tue Oct 21, 2014 2:32 am  

I absolutely agree. Whole seller with 200 bricks of Bike Standard is not a collector and shouldn't be placed neither on the top nor close to the real collector with 100 decks. I'm sure an algorithm should be found.
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Re: Top Collections - 'number of decks' and 'unique decks'

Unread postby montecarlojoe » Tue Oct 21, 2014 7:24 am  

I agree - I picked teh forumlas fo the shape of the curves more than anything;

The first one just says that having more decks of the same type should not scale up your score 1:1 - rather that there should be a maximum 'multiplier' arrived at no matter how many of a deck you have. Arctan just happens to have a horizontal asymptote (a max value never reached). ((-a/x)+b could work too)

The second says that the more decks that were produced the less they are worth (so a standard bike of thousands is not worth as much as a ldt edition of 100. Duh.)
Again a/x works here too.

if
n = number of decks owned
p = number of decks produced
a,b,c,d = constants to balance everything

then a score for a deck might be = [(-a/n)+b] x [(c/p)+d]

Would take some filddling with the contants to make things look right.
A place to start might be to require that a single deck of a 50000 (like a standard bike) run gives a score of 1.

e.g. if
a=9,b=10,c=25000,d=0.5

then 1 deck from 50000 (bike) gives a score of 1.
A gross of rider backs gives a score of 9.9375
2 decks from 200 (e.g. Venexiana Gold) gives a score of 690.25
A brick of a 2500 run (standard KS) gives a score of 97.125

Could probably use tweaking, but you get the idea (both variety and rareness are rewarded) and it's not super complex maths :)
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Re: Top Collections - 'number of decks' and 'unique decks'

Unread postby Slavich » Tue Oct 21, 2014 8:07 am  

What will happen if there is no print run filled in? :)
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Re: Top Collections - 'number of decks' and 'unique decks'

Unread postby iDoctor » Tue Oct 21, 2014 8:22 am  

I think the idea is exellent and the math is really not too high :)
But sometimes we do not know anything about printed numbers. And - how to count any scores in case of vintage decks, for example? We don't know any datas about some of them (even 20th century decks) - and they are very rare and sometimes extremely expensive.. (so if anybody has one - he is a hero :P ). But there are some collectors of 17-19 centuries decks (including handmade). I'm not sure they would agree with our logics... What do you think?
Last edited by iDoctor on Tue Oct 21, 2014 8:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Top Collections - 'number of decks' and 'unique decks'

Unread postby iDoctor » Tue Oct 21, 2014 8:27 am  

Slavich wrote:What will happen if there is no print run filled in? :)



Yes, Slavich - and in worst case - in case if the print run is unknown at all?
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Re: Top Collections - 'number of decks' and 'unique decks'

Unread postby ecNate » Tue Oct 21, 2014 9:24 am  

This is starting to feel like a you know what measuring contest. ;) Although if it's going to be more than just BOTH number of total decks and unique decks then may as well try and get it right. I'm not sure we need anything more than that, but because initial retail vs resale vary and aftermarket prices vary a lot over time which are near impossible to maintain, so realistically rating based on financial value for determining top collections is pointless (although keeping original retail value might have a purpose individually).

This then means all we have to go on beyond what I suggested initially is a rarity component (like what Joe is suggesting) and rating value (which HOPEFULLY rhu will be adding soon). This second component could factor in the aesthetic/quality value as determined by members in a rating system. I assume this would be implemented so each deck only receives say 10 ratings and I don't think one would have to own the deck, but then perhaps those votes are only worth 1/2 vote. In any case, the point being having widely desired decks are more valuable than garbage, but of course art is subjective so...

While this might be interesting, I'm not sure all the effort on our part and especially rhu is worth it. Perhaps some day this would be a nice to have feature, but again I just like browsing the top collections for inspiration so having unique decks list is all I would need personally. Am I missing something?
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Re: Top Collections - 'number of decks' and 'unique decks'

Unread postby dazzleguts » Tue Oct 21, 2014 4:29 pm  

Although I admire the clear and effective equation Joe worked out, I have to agree with the Nate that a separate and simple unique decks list would do it. I'd simply like to see the collections with the most variety rather than the largest numbers.
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Re: Top Collections - 'number of decks' and 'unique decks'

Unread postby montecarlojoe » Wed Oct 22, 2014 6:55 am  

There would be ways around missing data or historical decks;

For modern decks with no number of decks printed recorded we could assume a number (e.g. 50000), until the real number is found.

For antique decks where the print run is A)Unknown and B)No longer representative of rarity then that print run could be treated as "Estimated number of surviving decks"

But as has been usggested a simple unique deck count is half way there anyway.
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Re: Top Collections - 'number of decks' and 'unique decks'

Unread postby iDoctor » Wed Oct 22, 2014 7:44 am  

I've charmed by Joe's math :) At the same time I also have to agree that a separate unique decks list is preferred at the moment, as it is simple and effective counter. Frankly speaking, I count my own collection (for myself) it terms of unique decks only, not total.
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Re: Top Collections - 'number of decks' and 'unique decks'

Unread postby Sparkz » Thu Oct 23, 2014 2:00 pm  

Just my 2 cents, but why not, for the time being, make the "Unique" total be the "Pull" for top collections instead of the Total Decks?

Honestly, as it's been stated, I'm more interested in looking at a collection with variety than just a bunch of the same decks. Ya, without a doubt, if a "Scoring" system could be implimented to guage rarity and such, that would be awesome, but not a task that can happen over night.

Keep up the good work, the site is coming along nicely :D
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Re: Top Collections - 'number of decks' and 'unique decks'

Unread postby rhu » Fri Oct 24, 2014 4:15 am  

I know I've been quieter than usual lately, so I've added the unique decks totals on the homepage until I get some more time to work on this :)

As a side note, we're got about 45,000 page views in the last month, lots of e-mails (sorry I've not replied to them all yet!) and people are starting to show a lot more interest in this outwith UC. While 45,000 page views might not seem like a lot, it's a steady upward line :)

My focus just now is working on the site structure, hopefully over the next couple of weeks we'll see that implemented fully.
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Re: Top Collections - 'number of decks' and 'unique decks'

Unread postby iDoctor » Fri Oct 24, 2014 4:29 am  

Rhu, thank you very much! It's really great that you are always on duty :)
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Re: Top Collections - 'number of decks' and 'unique decks'

Unread postby Sparkz » Fri Oct 24, 2014 5:48 am  

rhu wrote:I know I've been quieter than usual lately, so I've added the unique decks totals on the homepage until I get some more time to work on this :)

As a side note, we're got about 45,000 page views in the last month, lots of e-mails (sorry I've not replied to them all yet!) and people are starting to show a lot more interest in this outwith UC. While 45,000 page views might not seem like a lot, it's a steady upward line :)

My focus just now is working on the site structure, hopefully over the next couple of weeks we'll see that implemented fully.


That's awesome news Rhu, we can always give another "Update" on Kardify as new features are added, let me know if we can do anything else to help.
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