General Discussion

Cards from far off lands and bygone days!

General Discussion

Unread postby Eoghann » Sun Feb 02, 2014 8:46 pm  

A place to discuss games, tricks and traditions or pretty much anything about cards from around the world!
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Re: General Discussion

Unread postby volantangel » Tue Feb 04, 2014 12:51 am  

Hey guys i was looking at what places have not been covered by you. I think egypt might be a location of interest. So i did a little digging and found this. http://www.wopc.co.uk/egypt/mamluk/index.html
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Re: General Discussion

Unread postby dazzleguts » Tue Feb 04, 2014 5:56 pm  

Cool Volant, I'm glad you brought it up.

I mention the Mamluk cards as the origin of Latin suits in the card families stickie, but I didn't have a deck on hand to represent them with. We've only been using cards from our collections and are hoping to get more of the other members posting international decks from their own collections. **If anyone here has a facsimile Mamluk deck please put it up, it would really add to the historical arc.**

I've only been posting my historical decks first in order to establish a context or background for each card family. The UC membership comes from all corners of the world so Eoghann and I are really hoping to see lots of modern and vintage decks from as many countries as possible posted here in the Worldwide. I will be posting more recent decks myself now that most of the history is established.

To get back to the subject - it's interesting that the origins of the baton or club in Latin suits is the polo stick suit of the Mamluk cards. Wasn't polo originally played with the severed heads of the conquered as the ball? And now we have designer "Polo" shirts. It's a strange world.
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Re: General Discussion

Unread postby Mike Ratledge » Thu Feb 06, 2014 12:19 am  

volantangel wrote:Hey guys i was looking at what places have not been covered by you. I think egypt might be a location of interest. So i did a little digging and found this. http://www.wopc.co.uk/egypt/mamluk/index.html

Belgium, maybe? Turnhout is where the "World Playing Card Museum" is located. It's where CartiMundi, Soc An Leonard Biermans (see "Look what I added..." page # 78) and at least two more playing card producers until the 70's, and as RSLancaster describes, it's like DisneyWorld for those of us that are Playing Card Collectors!
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Re: General Discussion

Unread postby dazzleguts » Thu Feb 06, 2014 1:23 pm  

Actually the antique deck I posted in China was made in Belgium by Biermans of Turnhout. The traditional "Far East" decks were a lucrative export for them since the market was so big.

Belgium is a big area for cards. Your own Turnhout deck has what is called the Belgian-Genoese pattern, which is French as th4mo mentioned. I went looking for Belgian decks in my collection but came up empty. I do have a Genoese pattern deck with the ones for aces, Genoese is a very common pattern, but mine was made in Austria by Piatnik. It can be distinguished from the Belgian-Genoese pattern by the round shield on the Jack of Clubs. The belgian version of the Genoese pattern has the J of C holding a more triangular shield.

You can read about it and see it here:
http://i-p-c-s.org/pattern/bgp.html.

And see another example here:
http://www.altacarta.com/overview/belgian-genoese.html.

It would be very cool to do a world tour of playing card sites, with Belgium definitely a major stop. To visit the origins and development of playing cards in the same way people follow the route Darwin took when he was developing his evolutionary theory.

There are many sites where you can read about Biermans and about the history of the Turnhout printing valley. Just one example:
http://www.wopc.co.uk/belgium/biermans/index.html.

And here is another Biermans deck, with links at the bottom of the page to variations.
http://www.dxpo-playingcards.com/xpo/va ... 870-01.htm

There's also a Biermans section under Belgium in the excellent WWPCM web site which I have a link to in the resources thread. Many, many decks to see there.

One last note - Cartamundi (aka Carta Mundi) was founded as a joint venture between the three companies of Brepols, Van Genechten and Biermans. Leonard Biermans actually worked at a Brepols factory for 3 years before striking out on his own.
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Re: General Discussion

Unread postby Mike Ratledge » Thu Feb 06, 2014 7:27 pm  

Yes, I remember somewhere finding the World Playing Cards Museum was there, also. Like RS said, cards everywhere - including the fast food restaurants. Turnhout claims to be the "birthplace of cards". Sounds like it!
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Re: General Discussion

Unread postby Mike Ratledge » Thu Feb 06, 2014 7:35 pm  

Yep, my Italian Cats decks are all printed by Piatnik in Austria. Both the well known one (Color 1989 edition) and the single B&W deck © 1983 printed in 84. Both perfect quality...
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Re: General Discussion

Unread postby dazzleguts » Thu Feb 06, 2014 11:25 pm  

I have got to learn to cut off the flow and be more laconic. My fingers are far more talkative than my voice. Sorry for the overflow of info Mike.

On a wish list for sure:
World Playing Cards Museum in Belgium
Fournier Museum in Spain
Miike Playing Card Memorial Museum in Japan

We look forward to seeing some of your international decks Mike, like the Piatnik Cats. Perhaps when all has been quiet for a while and you've been able to slow down a bit. Don't know where you get the energy to do all you have done in the last while, but it's very appreciated. :)
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Re: General Discussion

Unread postby Mike Ratledge » Thu Feb 06, 2014 11:47 pm  

dazzleguts wrote:I have got to learn to cut off the flow and be more laconic. My fingers are far more talkative than my voice. Sorry for the overflow of info Mike.

On a wish list for sure:
World Playing Cards Museum in Belgium
Fournier Museum in Spain
Miike Playing Card Memorial Museum in Japan

We look forward to seeing some of your international decks Mike, like the Piatnik Cats. Perhaps when all has been quiet for a while and you've been able to slow down a bit. Don't know where you get the energy to do all you have done in the last while, but it's very appreciated. :)

Cool! I have some previously shown (but likely missing at this point?) images of both decks, including the courts and jokers of both the old black & white and newer color (1989) Piatnik (was their # 2117) decks, also sold in singles by the artists as "Gatteria" branded decks. I'll hunt them up tomorrow, I'm late for bed already since I have to be up at 4:45am and on the road about 5 to work from 6 until 4PM.

(and dazz - feel free to drop some knowledge on us any time!)
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Re: General Discussion

Unread postby samurai007 » Mon Feb 24, 2014 4:27 am  

I have several international decks including Piatniks, a Fournier deck, some Lo Scarabeo decks, some Chinese decks, an Israeli deck, some Russian/Ukrainian decks, and more. There are a lot of very cool decks out in the world!
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Re: General Discussion

Unread postby Eoghann » Mon Feb 24, 2014 7:59 am  

Nice!

I've never seen an Israeli or Lo Scarabeo decks before. Maybe you can show us some time!
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Re: General Discussion

Unread postby Mike Ratledge » Mon Feb 24, 2014 11:10 am  

Eoghann wrote:Nice!

I've never seen an Israeli or Lo Scarabeo decks before. Maybe you can show us some time!

I _think_ I've seen one Tarot deck made by Lo Scarabeo, but it was ages ago. I don't believe that the make "playing cards" as we know them, maybe they used to? Not sure. "Show us your cards, samurai007!"
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Dondorf "Hundertjahrkarte" (1933)
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Re: General Discussion

Unread postby Jock1971 » Fri Mar 07, 2014 1:49 pm  

Hi there, I`m a new member to the forums and also a new collector, I`m not sure about how to upload images . I have a couple of Coeur decks from Germany i`ve recently purchased If you are interested i would like you to look at them and give me your thoughts. thanks. :D
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Re: General Discussion

Unread postby dazzleguts » Sun Mar 09, 2014 4:02 pm  

Hi Jock1971, welcome to the forum!

Sorry it's been a busy couple of days and I didn't see this until now.
We would love to see those Coeur decks. I believe the Rostock deck I put up is a Coeur deck as well.

Do you use any online image hosting services? If you do you can send me some images by PM and I can tell you where to find info on your decks, or give you any info I have. Otherwise you can go to the World Web Playing Card Museum and look under Germany >> Coeur >> your decks joker.

To post images in your posting, without an image host, just attach your jpgs using the upload attachment tab that appears below the posting window when you are in creation or editing mode of your post. If you need more pointers about image size, or anything else, feel free to ask.
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Re: General Discussion

Unread postby Jock1971 » Sun Mar 09, 2014 5:26 pm  

Thanks for the reply and information.I have looked on the world web playing card museum for information and found out about one deck(many thanks) but the other i can`t find. Have just posted images of the first one in the German Thread..Also i have a Ahlstrom deck i believe is finnish but ain`t too sure, so will leave off from uploading images

...

The Ahlstrom deck i mentioned above is in fact a deck from Sweden from Manufacturers Esselte Obergs.Should i upload images in the Europe thread or start a Sweden thread?
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Re: General Discussion

Unread postby dazzleguts » Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:18 am  

Hey jock, go ahead and start a Sweden thread. I have a couple of decks from Sweden that I'll post too, when I've got the time.

This is very cool. We already have a respectable number of countries with their own threads, and more to come! :D
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Re: General Discussion

Unread postby dazzleguts » Wed Jul 09, 2014 4:40 pm  

spacerspacerspacer

Worldwide now has a new name, and a content change.


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Please post your vintage, antique and international decks here and help us make UC the place to go for all kinds of playing cards.

We have added a North American thread for vintage and antique decks specifically, since the newer decks are already well covered. If you have an older North American deck please post pictures of it there, along with any info you may have on it's background.

Vintage is currently understood to be from the 1970s or earlier while Antique has to be 100, or more, years old.

Anyone who has an article or info they would like to add to the Time Machine please just PM either me or Eoghann. We'll find a spot for it, and you get full credit.

Speaking of credit, we wish to give a special shout out to Jase (Jock1971) for his valuable feedback in the rebranding and expansion of Worldwide Time Machine. From slogan to vintage decks; his contributions have greatly enriched our little corner of the forums. Jase has a special request that if anyone here has an "Outing sportsman" brand deck, esp. with the Moose Head back, please post it to the North America thread.
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Re: - ARTICLES -

Unread postby Mike Ratledge » Sun Jul 27, 2014 4:09 pm  

dazzleguts wrote:This thread is for articles on vintage, antique and international playing cards. If you have an article you would like to submit please contact Eoghann or dazzleguts by PM. An article can be something you wrote/compiled yourself, or something you have come across and asked permission to re-use.
...
*1* WORLD PLAYING CARD FAMILIES - dazzleguts

dazz, isn't this from Phil's book "The Real Deal" (Poker)? I know I've got that book, but I can't seem to put my fingers on it. I'm going hunting (again)!!
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Uncut sheets available here:
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Re: General Discussion

Unread postby dazzleguts » Sun Jul 27, 2014 5:38 pm  

Hi Mike. :)
I moved your comment here since the Articles thread is locked to keep the info there indexed and easy to find.

Did you mean is "The Playing Card Varieties" article from that book? I actually compiled that from many different sources, but that book wasn't one of them. I got lazy and didn't list all the books and websites involved. Should do that I suppose, but I doubt I'll be able to before I head off for a month. I only just got around to adjusting the title today, been meaning to for weeks. (Playing Card Families made it sound like the article discussed Dondorf, Fournier and other families who were playing card dynasties.)

A poker book of historical material sounds interesting. I have "The Poker Encyclopedia", and the explanation of poker terms brings up some historical info.
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Re: General Discussion

Unread postby Mike Ratledge » Sun Jul 27, 2014 8:05 pm  

dazzleguts wrote:Hi Mike. :)
I moved your comment here since the Articles thread is locked to keep the info there indexed and easy to find.

Did you mean is "The Playing Card Varieties" article from that book? I actually compiled that from many different sources, but that book wasn't one of them. I got lazy and didn't list all the books and websites involved. Should do that I suppose, but I doubt I'll be able to before I head off for a month. I only just got around to adjusting the title today, been meaning to for weeks. (Playing Card Families made it sound like the article discussed Dondorf, Fournier and other families who were playing card dynasties.)

A poker book of historical material sounds interesting. I have "The Poker Encyclopedia", and the explanation of poker terms brings up some historical info.

Yep, sorry - I guess I didn't notice it was locked because as you know, for mods it's the same button and it posts a response regardless. I was thinking about the article by Phil where he was talking about the deck that "killed" Dondorf. If I remember correctly, it required 28 'stones' or what we would call plates these days: 16-color faces and 12-color backs? I think that's correct. That's just amazing that someone would even try something that far ahead of their time (about 1930, right - their 100th anniversary was the decks reason for being, and they were founded in 1830, pretty certain). So - to celebrate their 100th anniversary they created a deck that was so elaborate (and expensive) that they never recovered and ended up going into bankruptcy and what we know as A.S.S. (I know the German name + Spielkartan, but I can't recall the spelling right now so I won't butcher it. Darned Tyskland (danish for Germany) just uses words that are too darned long!). ASS is the same company that bought Zander, and remember Dr Zander is the one that did the 12-color deck I found in the plain white & green tuck and did a little research about only to find out it was never intended for sale, but always printed over about 10 years (1957-1968 I think) as a salesman's sample for their "Fine Papers" and an example of how far you could push things. I know I've shown it several times before, but I'll clip it to this post again. The Chromagrafix decks will pretty much be a redux of these, except likely only 10-color. I already explained to the point of exhaustion why 12-colors and combinations is a waste on a whole uncut sheet, much less a single 2.5" x 3.5" face.
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Members are encouraged to
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Dondorf "Hundertjahrkarte" (1933)
restoration sets still available:
Late Backers Link
Decks produced & gilded by
Cartamundi, Restoration by Lotrek

Uncut sheets available here:
Uncuts by Cartamundi


UC members help maintain Portfolio52
THE Playing Card Database Online
Contact ecNate for details and access


UC2018 decks by Rick Davidson
Announcement coming soon!


v2 Carat Card Cases™
single, double, triple & quad
US / Canadian / Overseas
shipping by Priority Mail
>>> UC Deck Sales <<<


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