KickScammed.com

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KickScammed.com

Unread post by Mike Ratledge »

I bought a domain name last night that is going to be our tool to kick back at kickstarter projects that end up available (and delivered) before they fulfill their backer pledge rewards. That just sucks eggs, being polite. We should again rally the troops and put a stop to it, even if they won't. The problem is that they are "fat, dump & happy" with their 5% cut of everything, and refuse to make regulations and rules that prohibit what is happening.

It's a simple change: forbid the sale of anything before the pledge rewards are filled. I don't think that's too much to ask, but I guarantee that no matter how many of us complain, they won't do a thing about it.

If they don't pay any attention, I'll activate my cleverly named domain, and we'll just keep track of people ourselves, and recommend anyone for expulsion from the pages, flat out putting out the word that they don't keep their end of the bargain.

I ask each and every one of you to go to their contact page and put in that request: "No Kickstarter funded item shall be sold to the public at all until backer pledges are fulfilled." That's pretty simple.

Changed topic name to reflect the new site that tracks Kickstarter.com scammers
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Re: kickstarter.com "Kick back" campaign

Unread post by chach »

How would kickstarter enforce your proposition exactly? Cause if I'm clear, you're asking Kickstarter to tell people that they can not sell their product on a retail market before they sell to their backers, correct? Sorry, but there's no way they can enforce that. Is it a bad practice? Yup. Is it illegal? No. Can Kickstarter do anything about it? Nope.

I do like the idea of a public shaming place but this isn't the days of yore where you could throw rotten fruit at people in the stockades. You'll want to be careful because there's that whole, slander / libel / bullying politically correct thing nowadays. Bitching about people not fulfilling a project on a forum is one thing. Having a web page entirely dedicated to targeting folks and outing them is another thing, IMO.

Also, no offense, but how does this apply to "New & Custom Decks"?
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Re: kickstarter.com "Kick back" campaign

Unread post by Brillig »

chach wrote:How would kickstarter enforce your proposition exactly? Cause if I'm clear, you're asking Kickstarter to tell people that they can not sell their product on a retail market before they sell to their backers, correct? Sorry, but there's no way they can enforce that. Is it a bad practice? Yup. Is it illegal? No. Can Kickstarter do anything about it? Nope.

I do like the idea of a public shaming place but this isn't the days of yore where you could throw rotten fruit at people in the stockades. You'll want to be careful because there's that whole, slander / libel / bullying politically correct thing nowadays. Bitching about people not fulfilling a project on a forum is one thing. Having a web page entirely dedicated to targeting folks and outing them is another thing, IMO.

Also, no offense, but how does this apply to "New & Custom Decks"?
I don't see why you think enforcement would be a problem. A contract exists between Kickstarter and the project creator doesn't it? Such a clause would be no more or less enforceable than any other.
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Re: kickstarter.com "Kick back" campaign

Unread post by DelMagic »

I can't see Kickstarter or any other business putting clauses into a contract that deal with "business transactions" that occur outside of the Kickstarter campaign. It just won't happen.
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Re: kickstarter.com "Kick back" campaign

Unread post by th4mo »

Brillig wrote:
chach wrote:How would kickstarter enforce your proposition exactly? Cause if I'm clear, you're asking Kickstarter to tell people that they can not sell their product on a retail market before they sell to their backers, correct? Sorry, but there's no way they can enforce that. Is it a bad practice? Yup. Is it illegal? No. Can Kickstarter do anything about it? Nope.

I do like the idea of a public shaming place but this isn't the days of yore where you could throw rotten fruit at people in the stockades. You'll want to be careful because there's that whole, slander / libel / bullying politically correct thing nowadays. Bitching about people not fulfilling a project on a forum is one thing. Having a web page entirely dedicated to targeting folks and outing them is another thing, IMO.

Also, no offense, but how does this apply to "New & Custom Decks"?
I don't see why you think enforcement would be a problem. A contract exists between Kickstarter and the project creator doesn't it? Such a clause would be no more or less enforceable than any other.
I think you are making the case for him. They already don't enforce their existing terms about project fulfillment. It seems their only recourse is to cancel an existing project or not let someone start another one.

Regarding the other part of the question: It's never slander or libel to tell the truth. Publicizing that a project creator started selling his products before all his backers received their rewards is pretty easy to back up with facts.
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Re: kickstarter.com "Kick back" campaign

Unread post by chach »

Not only that, but how exactly would they go about doing it? Would they setup a team of people that scours the internet looking for projects that were funded and started selling retail before delivery to the backers? Mind you, we're not just talking about cards here, they'd have to do it for ALL of their projects. That's a lot of man hours with no return. It's a negative cash flow, no way on earth any company with any sort of business sense would setup and pay a team of people on a project that is not only not a money maker, but something that costs money.

And say they do find someone selling retail before delivery to backers, what are they going to do? Tell them they're a bad person and need to start delivering to backers or else? And that's the thing, or else WHAT? There are no enforceable consequences. The people already have their money, got it back when the project closed. They'd just tell kickstarter to pound sand. Maybe they'd say that you can't start another project with us, but again, what company would say, "You want to give me money? No, you're a bad person."

Again, it's a nice idea, but there's no way for kickstarter to enforce it.
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Re: kickstarter.com "Kick back" campaign

Unread post by BMPokerworld »

I agree it will be impossible to enforce, but they can do simply things like not allowing you to start a second campaign until you have uploaded unique and verifiable tracking numbers for all your rewards on your first campaign. This should be very easy to do as eBay already tells you if it is a valid tracking number or not and it does not let you upload the same tracking number for different shipping addresses.

Thanks!
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Re: kickstarter.com "Kick back" campaign

Unread post by Mike Ratledge »

chach wrote:How would kickstarter enforce your proposition exactly? Cause if I'm clear, you're asking Kickstarter to tell people that they can not sell their product on a retail market before they sell to their backers, correct? Sorry, but there's no way they can enforce that. Is it a bad practice? Yup. Is it illegal? No. Can Kickstarter do anything about it? Nope.

I do like the idea of a public shaming place but this isn't the days of yore where you could throw rotten fruit at people in the stockades. You'll want to be careful because there's that whole, slander / libel / bullying politically correct thing nowadays. Bitching about people not fulfilling a project on a forum is one thing. Having a web page entirely dedicated to targeting folks and outing them is another thing, IMO.

Also, no offense, but how does this apply to "New & Custom Decks"?
Oh, I fully understand that. I suspect the public outcry for kickstarter to make a policy change requring pledge fulfillments before commercial sales will fall on deaf ears.

I was thinking about starting a forum - "kickbackers.com" (actually, I picked a different name, since that's registered and the guy wants to sell it for $1000), that simply polled KS users about their experiences for EVERYBODY, not just "problem children". I don't think that would run any risk of being called out for defamation, libel or anything like that. IANAL, but I have been. :lol:

What does everyone think? I've got a domain already parked and waiting, but I'd like to try the reasonable "user complaint" process first, because - it's been done before, and it would make them look good.

th4mo wrote:I think you are making the case for him. They already don't enforce their existing terms about project fulfillment. It seems their only recourse is to cancel an existing project or not let someone start another one.

Regarding the other part of the question: It's never slander or libel to tell the truth. Publicizing that a project creator started selling his products before all his backers received their rewards is pretty easy to back up with facts.
That's exactly my point. Why couldn't they change the terms of their agreement to make it state that projects that took money from backers couldn't sell commercially until the filled backer rewards? Isn't that the point in the first place?

Now, that said, I really don't think they will, simply because their policy had always been to run back to their digs in New York City with 5% of the take for all project, I'm keenly aware.

I know - it's a logistical nightmare, but it would be a simple matter of reporting a project using the "Report to kickstarter" button in each project that they were delivering commercial sales before you got your pledge reward. And yep, I'm counting on them to enforce their own rules - folly, I'm certain, but worth a shot. Someone that had been reported "X" number of times wouldn't be able to start a new project. Effectively a permanent ban for abusing their system.

BMPokerworld wrote:I agree it will be impossible to enforce, but they can do simply things like not allowing you to start a second campaign until you have uploaded unique and verifiable tracking numbers for all your rewards on your first campaign. This should be very easy to do as eBay already tells you if it is a valid tracking number or not and it does not let you upload the same tracking number for different shipping addresses.

Thanks!
Also a good point, it would be relatively easy to code the HTML even for me, and I'm no pro. You know they've got some good code carvers over there - have to!
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Re: kickstarter.com "Kick back" campaign

Unread post by MagikFingerz »

I think that forum/website idea where backers of all kinds of kickstarter projects can vote/rate and write reviews on projects sounds like a great idea, and would probably do more good than just trying to strongarm Kickstarter itself because it would scare/motivate project starters to actually do a good job (like being the Yelp of kickstarters). This place would need a way to filter and organize the information both by individual projects and project starters (combined rating of their projects). If done right, I think it could really make a difference.
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Re: kickstarter.com "Kick back" campaign

Unread post by BMPokerworld »

To be honest, the best defense for preventing your pledge to be lost to a con-artist or someone who takes forever to get you your reward, is simple common sense.

1) Stay away from campaigns that have a goal less than the break even point through KS

2) Don't back campaigns from people who still have not delivered their first campaign. There really is no reason to start another campaign without the previous one being completed, unless it is a scam or they are just too greedy. Let them prove to you they can be trusted and the only way they can do that is by delivering their previous campaign first.

3) Stay away from the campaigns where the creators are making stuff up as they go along because they don't know what they are doing or they are just out and out lying to you. Trust me, you won't miss out on the deck. If it actually gets produced, it will be available someplace on the aftermarket.

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Re: kickstarter.com "Kick back" campaign

Unread post by MagikFingerz »

Mike, right as you may be, there is no way of predicting the future with 100% accuracy. There will always be people who seemingly "do everything right", but in the end does not deliver. Something like what Mr Ratman is proposing would at least put the word out and prevent people from backing them again. It might also make future project creators strive towards a high rating and make things better for everyone.
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Re: kickstarter.com "Kick back" campaign

Unread post by Mike Ratledge »

MagikFingerz wrote:I think that forum/website idea where backers of all kinds of kickstarter projects can vote/rate and write reviews on projects sounds like a great idea, and would probably do more good than just trying to strongarm Kickstarter itself because it would scare/motivate project starters to actually do a good job (like being the Yelp of kickstarters). This place would need a way to filter and organize the information both by individual projects and project starters (combined rating of their projects). If done right, I think it could really make a difference.
That's exactly what I'm talking about, almost precisely where I was headed with this. Something that allows the users to vote, maybe on a list of limited characteristics of how each designer and project was managed and fulfilled.
BMPokerworld wrote:To be honest, the best defense for preventing your pledge to be lost to a con-artist or someone who takes forever to get you your reward, is simple common sense.

1) Stay away from campaigns that have a goal less than the break even point through KS

2) Don't back campaigns from people who still have not delivered their first campaign. There real is no reason to start another campaign without a previous one being completed, unless it is a scam or they are just to greedy. Let them prove to you they can be trusted and the only way they can do that is by delivering their previous campaign first.

3) Stay away from the campaigns where the creators are making stuff up as they go along because they don't know what they are doing or they are just out and out lying to you. Trust me, you won't miss out on the deck. If it actually gets produced, it will be available someplace on the aftermarket.
While I totally agree, we're not talking about those projects, really. We're talking about the ones that already made it. I definitely think people "vote with their feet" (in this case wallets or purses), but - after the fact, what else can we do? I'm open to suggestions, but MagikFingerz is right on target for what I wanted to hear and the direction I was thinking of taking.
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Re: kickstarter.com "Kick back" campaign

Unread post by volantangel »

YOU SHOULD START A KICKSTARTER CAMPAIGN TO FUND THIS !
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Re: kickstarter.com "Kick back" campaign

Unread post by BMPokerworld »

ratledge wrote; While I totally agree, we're not talking about those projects, really. We're talking about the ones that already made it. I definitely think people "vote with their feet" (in this case wallets or purses), but - after the fact, what else can we do? I'm open to suggestions, but MagikFingerz is right on target for what I wanted to hear and the direction I was thinking of taking.
While your never going to be right all the time, but if you follow my guidelines the vast majority of failures can be avoided. the key is avoiding them BEFORE they start.

Thanks!
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Re: kickstarter.com "Kick back" campaign

Unread post by Mike Ratledge »

volantangel wrote:YOU SHOULD START A KICKSTARTER CAMPAIGN TO FUND THIS !
LMBO... I wonder how well it would get pledged?
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Re: kickstarter.com "Kick back" campaign

Unread post by Mike Ratledge »

BMPokerworld wrote:
ratledge wrote: While I totally agree, we're not talking about those projects really. We're talking about the ones that already made it. I definitely think people "vote with their feet" (in this case wallets or purses), but - after the fact, what else can we do? I'm open to suggestions, but MagikFingerz is right on target for what I wanted to hear and the direction I was thinking of taking.
While your never going to be right all the time, but if you follow my guidelines the vast majority of failures can be avoided. The key is avoiding them BEFORE they start.
Oh, I agree: voting with our pocketbooks (or not, rather) would solve a lot of the problems, but think about the number of decks we're waiting on right now (and waiting, and waiting, and ...) that are from designers that have done it before? And by "done it", I mean run a successful campaign, not ripped people off or not delivered their pledge rewards.
>Mike<
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They say "Ignorance is bliss". Obviously, some people are much happier than others...

Members are encouraged to
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Re: kickstarter.com "Kick back" campaign

Unread post by Bikefanatic »

You'll usually have at least 30 days to decide whether you want to pledge or not. The main thing I pay attention to most is the creator's response to people's comments. Also if you can see their face. By answering questions and taking suggestions, it could show that they care about the product though at the end it can go wrong.

I agree with Mike of the create as you go (I think Jackson started it). If a deck doesn't have a tuck at the beginning, I would question it because that's what should draw people in. I know it's a possibility a creator can have all the work done but just release bits and pieces to make it seem like a creation process.
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Re: kickstarter.com "Kick back" campaign

Unread post by BMPokerworld »

Bikefanatic wrote:You'll usually have at least 30 days to decide whether you want to pledge or not. The main thing I pay attention to most is the creator's response to people's comments. Also if you can see their face. By answering questions and taking suggestions, it could show that they care about the product though at the end it can go wrong.

I agree with Mike of the create as you go (I think Jackson started it). If a deck doesn't have a tuck at the beginning, I would question it because that's what should draw people in. I know it's a possibility a creator can have all the work done but just release bits and pieces to make it seem like a creation process.
This is where we disagree. I don't think it should be create as you go because it does nothing but increase the delivery time of your reward. I think the whole deck should be completed before you launch on KS. That way everyone will know you are committed to the project. Designing just a couple of cards and not investing any money into the project just shows a lack of commitment IMO. Remember this is your deck and should be your vision. If everything is completed, you can always make adjustments while the campaign is still running. Doing it this way will allow your backers to still have input and allow the project to be turned over to USPCC shortly after it is funded. Most campaigns run 30 or more days and that should be more than enough time to make any changes and show those changes to your backers.

To be honest, the reason I think a lot of people don't complete their design first is because they don't want to invest the time if the deck isn't going to get funded or it is just an excuse by the designer to buy some time as to why the project is behind. Think David from Vanda.
Ratledge Wrote: Oh, I agree: voting with our pocketbooks (or not, rather) would solve a lot of the problems, but think about the number of decks we're waiting on right now (and waiting, and waiting, and ...) that are from designers that have done it before? And by "done it", I mean run a successful campaign, not ripped people off or not delivered their pledge rewards.
No system is ever going to be perfect unless you don't let go of the money until they let go of the item. But if you look back at people who have run multiple campaigns and their backers are now having major headaches getting their items, you will find they were late on their previous campaigns as well. A very generous time frame for delivery should be no more than 4 months after the campaign has ended. The decks should be in everyone's hand by the end of the fourth month. No excuses for beyond that. I do think that time frame is still way too long, but I think anything shorter and people will think it is unreasonable. Remember, I shipped out a UC decks 5 weeks after the campaign ended, so it can be done much quicker if the designer is proactive.

Thanks!
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Re: kickstarter.com "Kick back" campaign

Unread post by Bikefanatic »

BMPokerworld wrote:This is where we disagree. I don't think it should be create as you go because it does nothing but increase the delivery time of your reward. I think the whole deck should be completed before you launch on KS. That way everyone will know you are committed to the project. Designing just a couple of cards and not investing any money into the project just shows a lack of commitment IMO. Remember this is your deck and should be your vision. If everything is completed, you can always make adjustments while the campaign is still running. Doing it this way will allow your backers to still have input and allow the project to be turned over to USPCC shortly after funded. Most campaigns run 30 or more days and that should be more than enough time to make any changes and show those changes to your backers.
We don't disagree, you just went into detail of what I was saying plus the cons of create-as-you-go. I been on KS since January, people probably did it before but Jackson is the first I seen with the CAYG because he wanted us to go through the experience/journey as he was making the deck. There was the possibility of him already creating the whole deck but making it seem like we're on this roller coaster. You're right when people can just throw a few cards out there then when they realize they have a high funding and whole deck isn't created, they get pressured or feel rushed so they'll just do a lazy job. It's good to see a mock uncut sheet.

Another good/bad approach was the Urban Punk deck. They only showed a few cards because they wanted us to be surprised when we opened the deck to see the rest of the cards. This helped and hurt them by the barely funding. Chances are people probably thought they didn't have the whole deck done when it seems like they did.
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Re: kickstarter.com "Kick back" campaign

Unread post by Mike Ratledge »

Bikefanatic wrote:You'll usually have at least 30 days to decide whether you want to pledge or not. The main thing I pay attention to most is the creator's response to people's comments. Also if you can see their face. By answering questions and taking suggestions, it could show that they care about the product though at the end it can go wrong.

I agree with Mike of the create as you go (I think Jackson started it). If a deck doesn't have a tuck at the beginning, I would question it because that's what should draw people in. I know it's a possibility a creator can have all the work done but just release bits and pieces to make it seem like a creation process.
Yep, no doubt. Linnea and Peter of UUSI do that now. They show the uncut with place-holders for cards "yet to be revealed", and don't show their cards (pun intended) for all the add-ons at first. I noted in their current project thread that the previous "Friend of the Family" 12-deck rosewood case isn't going to be the same this time, it's likely going to be something along the lines of the box released with "Redux". I know Peter is busy building those 2-deck swivel (likely done) and 12-deck boxes for fulfilling the Redux pledges, but - I think we know that when we do it. Those have traditionally - at least for them - been the last things to be shipped.

Actually, I've been thinking about what we've said, and went and unbacked 5 projects this morning, and adjusted my pledges down for three others. We're just too trusting, although I'm sure a lot of us have become jaded by the way we've been treated, which is exactly why I started this thread and decided to see if we can't do something about it.

Again, first of all, I would suggest that EVERYONE that has an unfulfilled pledge that knows that the decks are already available online and being delivered before their pledge 'reward' comes should go report the project to KickStarter using the "Report Project" button near the bottom of the respective page near the "Financial Responsibility" disclaimer. It will at least "grease the skids" for what we're trying to do, and make it known that we've had enough.

I can think of two projects right now that I have gotten off ebay or online, but I still don't have my 'reward'. It's hard to tick me off, but once you do I tend to take action instead of just spewing words.

That being said, I'm looking for someone with HTML skilz to help me with this project. I can code simple things, but something like this project that requires an SQL backend DB and some slick programming and design is way beyond my abilities. I have a domain parked as of a few nights ago when I posted the thread - I bought it just before I posted here. "KickBacker.com" isn't available, but I picked something that starts with "KickSta..." that will pop be easy to remember.
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Re: kickstarter.com "Kick back" campaign

Unread post by montecarlojoe »

I like the idea of the site, but maybe have some carrot as well as stick - article to highlight exemplars of well run campaigns for high quality goods perhaps? Or guides for HOW to run a campaign...
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Re: kickstarter.com "Kick back" campaign

Unread post by MagikFingerz »

montecarlojoe wrote:I like the idea of the site, but maybe have some carrot as well as stick - article to highlight exemplars of well run campaigns for high quality goods perhaps? Or guides for HOW to run a campaign...
Both good ideas. It can also have a feedback section for projects that haven't launched yet, where creators can post previews of their project page and get constructive criticism on layout, reward levels etc.
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Re: kickstarter.com "Kick back" campaign

Unread post by montecarlojoe »

MagikFingerz wrote:
montecarlojoe wrote:I like the idea of the site, but maybe have some carrot as well as stick - article to highlight exemplars of well run campaigns for high quality goods perhaps? Or guides for HOW to run a campaign...
Both good ideas. It can also have a feedback section for projects that haven't launched yet, where creators can post previews of their project page and get constructive criticism on layout, reward levels etc.
Good point - perhaps the section for presentation and feedback could be separate from an area where the site independently gives its (as far as possible) objective preview of the project.

you could take that a step further:

Project previews: Which give a rating based on the criteria that have been outlined here, and creator "Rep".
Project reviews: Which give a rating based on the actual outcomes, times scales, communication etc.
Product Rating: Your basic review of the deck/other product etc
Creator Rep: Based on Project Review and Product ratings

This way the more projects you complete well and with a product at a high standard gives you more rep, which then feeds back to better preview ratings in the future - if the site gets enough exposure in the community and people care it's then to creator's advantage to COMPLETE before starting again...

I think the focus on the projects rather than fawning over the look of decks is a novel idea - NO-ONE does it outside of these forum type discussions...
BMPokerworld

Re: kickstarter.com "Kick back" campaign

Unread post by BMPokerworld »

montecarlojoe wrote:
MagikFingerz wrote:
montecarlojoe wrote:I like the idea of the site, but maybe have some carrot as well as stick - article to highlight exemplars of well run campaigns for high quality goods perhaps? Or guides for HOW to run a campaign...
Both good ideas. It can also have a feedback section for projects that haven't launched yet, where creators can post previews of their project page and get constructive criticism on layout, reward levels etc.
Good point - perhaps the section for presentation and feedback could be separate from an area where the site independently gives its (as far as possible) objective preview of the project.

you could take that a step further:

Project previews: Which give a rating based on the criteria that have been outlined here, and creator "Rep".
Project reviews: Which give a rating based on the actual outcomes, times scales, communication etc.
Product Rating: Your basic review of the deck/other product etc
Creator Rep: Based on Project Review and Product ratings

This way the more projects you complete well and with a product at a high standard gives you more rep, which then feeds back to better preview ratings in the future - if the site gets enough exposure in the community and people care it's then to creator's advantage to COMPLETE before starting again...

I think the focus on the projects rather than fawning over the look of decks is a novel idea - NO-ONE does it outside of these forum type discussions...
Those are all good suggestions, but in the end it won't matter. A perfect example is the Persian Nights deck. You have people on this forum who backed that deck the second time around despite all of the lies he told during the first campaign. Things like that just drive me nuts, but you can only take them to the water, you can't make them drink it.

Thanks!
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Re: kickstarter.com "Kick back" campaign

Unread post by MagikFingerz »

montecarlojoe wrote: Good point - perhaps the section for presentation and feedback could be separate from an area where the site independently gives its (as far as possible) objective preview of the project.

you could take that a step further:

Project previews: Which give a rating based on the criteria that have been outlined here, and creator "Rep".
Project reviews: Which give a rating based on the actual outcomes, times scales, communication etc.
Product Rating: Your basic review of the deck/other product etc
Creator Rep: Based on Project Review and Product ratings

This way the more projects you complete well and with a product at a high standard gives you more rep, which then feeds back to better preview ratings in the future - if the site gets enough exposure in the community and people care it's then to creator's advantage to COMPLETE before starting again...

I think the focus on the projects rather than fawning over the look of decks is a novel idea - NO-ONE does it outside of these forum type discussions...
I think product rating would be somewhat irrelevant and too subjective to be included. If the goal is objectivity, the only thing that matters is that the product matches what is promised by the creator. That should probably be covered in the "project reviews" section anyway.

Other than that, everything sounds like it would work well. Hopefully The Ratman can find a web programmer to get this going soon :)
BMPokerworld wrote:Those are all good suggestions, but in the end it won't matter. A perfect example is the Persian Nights deck. You have people on this forum who backed that deck the second time around despite all of the lies he told during the first campaign. Things like that just drive me nuts, but you can only take them to the water, you can't make them drink it.

Thanks!
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Re: kickstarter.com "Kick back" campaign

Unread post by Mike Ratledge »

montecarlojoe wrote:I like the idea of the site, but maybe have some carrot as well as stick - article to highlight exemplars of well run campaigns for high quality goods perhaps? Or guides for HOW to run a campaign...
I agree toally with this as well, and that's the point: we won't just be disapproving of people that aren't honest or fail to deliver in a timely fashion, we'll be highlighting trustworthy new projects that we see as a good investment for "All Things Kickstarter". That being said, I have to realize that there are a whole lot of things other than playing cards, but "you can do anything with statistics". :lol:

I'd like to make it pretty much self-sustaining in that it will actually be able to pick and possibly predict the success of a new project down the road after it gets to the basic goal, which is tracking the "Good, Bad & Ugly" projects and creators. That would be interesting, and again - something that I have no clue how to program, but - I'm certain it's doable.
MagikFingerz wrote:
montecarlojoe wrote:I like the idea of the site, but maybe have some carrot as well as stick - article to highlight exemplars of well run campaigns for high quality goods perhaps? Or guides for HOW to run a campaign...
Both good ideas. It can also have a feedback section for projects that haven't launched yet, where creators can post previews of their project page and get constructive criticism on layout, reward levels etc.
Also sounds good. Keep them coming. By the time we have a good couple of pages here, I think we'll know exactly what directions to take in addition to the basic goal which is to scold and discourage people from backing projects by people that have previously been naughty, but at the same time we want to encourage people to back projects when the designed has a new project and he's been nice. (must be getting close to the holidays, I don't usually talk this way)
>Mike<
"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself"
They say "Ignorance is bliss". Obviously, some people are much happier than others...

Members are encouraged to
Show Us Your Cards!


Our UC2021 Decks entitled
"Odd Fellows"
by Lorenzo Gaggiotti / @Stockholm17
Coming soon: AKA
«Eighth Annual Decks»


UC members help maintain Portfolio52
THE Playing Card Database Online
Contact ecNate for details and access


UC2019 "Seventh Annual Decks"
by Montenzi Design
Funded 207% on KS: HERE


>>> UC Deck Sales <<<


Insert disclaimer here...
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Re: kickstarter.com "Kick back" campaign

Unread post by Mike Ratledge »

MagikFingerz wrote:
montecarlojoe wrote: Good point - perhaps the section for presentation and feedback could be separate from an area where the site independently gives its (as far as possible) objective preview of the project.

you could take that a step further:

Project previews: Which give a rating based on the criteria that have been outlined here, and creator "Rep".
Project reviews: Which give a rating based on the actual outcomes, times scales, communication etc.
Product Rating: Your basic review of the deck/other product etc
Creator Rep: Based on Project Review and Product ratings

This way the more projects you complete well and with a product at a high standard gives you more rep, which then feeds back to better preview ratings in the future - if the site gets enough exposure in the community and people care it's then to creator's advantage to COMPLETE before starting again...

I think the focus on the projects rather than fawning over the look of decks is a novel idea - NO-ONE does it outside of these forum type discussions...
I think product rating would be somewhat irrelevant and too subjective to be included. If the goal is objectivity, the only thing that matters is that the product matches what is promised by the creator. That should probably be covered in the "project reviews" section anyway.

Other than that, everything sounds like it would work well. Hopefully The Ratman can find a web programmer to get this going soon :)
BMPokerworld wrote:Those are all good suggestions, but in the end it won't matter. A perfect example is the Persian Nights deck. You have people in this forum who backed that deck the second time around despite all of the lies he told during the first campaign. Things like that just drive me nuts, but you can only take them to the water, you can't make them drink it.

Thanks!
People will always do stupid things, it's human nature. That shouldn't stop anyone from trying to make a difference.
Good points, at first I guess it's best to focus on the difference between good project management and followthrough and those that do neither. If we start out giving people an open forum, we'll end up having a couple of people 'blow their horn' on the site, only to turn around and end up on the 'naughty' list later, which wouldn't help the site's credibility.

Second one goes back to "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink". No matter how much we publicize the fact that certain people just aren't worth backing, you'll still have people like Cy that somehow backed his own project by the tune of $1000 overnight when it was destined to fail, only to see it squeek by with obviously not enough funding - or he wouldn't have been back at the watering hole less than six weeks later. "You can show an idiot they're stupid, but even with a 2x4, you can't beat sense into him".

I'm hoping somebody with good coding skilz steps up to the plate, too. I'm not bad at it, I'm just not good at it, either - and I know the difference between an OK site and a great site and a freakin' fabulous site.

I want to at least hit the middle of that curve, at least - if not towards the "looking good" side.
>Mike<
"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself"
They say "Ignorance is bliss". Obviously, some people are much happier than others...

Members are encouraged to
Show Us Your Cards!


Our UC2021 Decks entitled
"Odd Fellows"
by Lorenzo Gaggiotti / @Stockholm17
Coming soon: AKA
«Eighth Annual Decks»


UC members help maintain Portfolio52
THE Playing Card Database Online
Contact ecNate for details and access


UC2019 "Seventh Annual Decks"
by Montenzi Design
Funded 207% on KS: HERE


>>> UC Deck Sales <<<


Insert disclaimer here...
All information posted as fact is accurate at the time of posting to the best of my knowledge.
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Re: kickstarter.com "Kick back" campaign

Unread post by th4mo »

Is this new imagined site supposed to cover just playing card KS projects, or ALL KS projects?

If it's all of KS, than you are talking about a huge undertaking that i believe is way beyond the capabilities of a few talented amateurs in their spare time...

If it's just cards projects, and you want to:

-discuss the merits of various newly -launched KS projects
-spread the word about disreputable creators
-highlight and praise successful creators

well, i can think of a few websites already in existence that already do this, although without a formal rating system. ;)
Keep it Sizzlin'!
BMPokerworld

Re: kickstarter.com "Kick back" campaign

Unread post by BMPokerworld »

th4mo wrote:Is this new imagined site supposed to cover just playing card KS projects, or ALL KS projects?

If it's all of KS, than you are talking about a huge undertaking that i believe is way beyond the capabilities of a few talented amateurs in their spare time...

If it's just cards projects, and you want to:

-discuss the merits of various newly -launched KS projects
-spread the word about disreputable creators
-highlight and praise successful creators

well, i can think of a few websites already in existence that already do this, although without a formal rating system. ;)
Actually we can do those same things because they people who would actually research that information are probably the members here.

Thanks!
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Re: kickstarter.com "Kick back" campaign

Unread post by Mike Ratledge »

th4mo wrote:Is this new imagined site supposed to cover just playing card KS projects, or ALL KS projects?

If it's all of KS, than you are talking about a huge undertaking that i believe is way beyond the capabilities of a few talented amateurs in their spare time...

If it's just cards projects, and you want to:

-discuss the merits of various newly -launched KS projects
-spread the word about disreputable creators
-highlight and praise successful creators

well, i can think of a few websites already in existence that already do this, although without a formal rating system. ;)
Yep, I know. I've thought about it, and right now it would have to be limited to playing cards for it to be even manageable.
BMPokerworld wrote:
th4mo wrote:Is this new imagined site supposed to cover just playing card KS projects, or ALL KS projects?

If it's all of KS, than you are talking about a huge undertaking that i believe is way beyond the capabilities of a few talented amateurs in their spare time...

If it's just cards projects, and you want to:

-discuss the merits of various newly -launched KS projects
-spread the word about disreputable creators
-highlight and praise successful creators

well, i can think of a few websites already in existence that already do this, although without a formal rating system. ;)
Actually we can do those same things because they people who would actually research that information are probably the members here.

Thanks!
Don't think that's a bad idea, either. Just thinking about using "kickstabbers.com" to do that, seems only appropriate. :P
>Mike<
"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself"
They say "Ignorance is bliss". Obviously, some people are much happier than others...

Members are encouraged to
Show Us Your Cards!


Our UC2021 Decks entitled
"Odd Fellows"
by Lorenzo Gaggiotti / @Stockholm17
Coming soon: AKA
«Eighth Annual Decks»


UC members help maintain Portfolio52
THE Playing Card Database Online
Contact ecNate for details and access


UC2019 "Seventh Annual Decks"
by Montenzi Design
Funded 207% on KS: HERE


>>> UC Deck Sales <<<


Insert disclaimer here...
All information posted as fact is accurate at the time of posting to the best of my knowledge.
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