Coloured Stock

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Coloured Stock

Unread post by mook »

I've noticed, when looking for coloured cards, that the majority are obviously printed on white stock and then coloured to suit, backs and faces.

It looks kind of lame when, for example, you see black cards with white edges, when viewed from the side as a block.

I just wondered, are there any cards that are printed on coloured stock?
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Re: Coloured Stock

Unread post by Eoghann »

Why do I get the feeling this exact question has been asked before? I'd swear I've heard it.

The only colored stock playing cards I've ever seen are the Molla Space ones. But they're plastic. They have red cards, clear and black as far as I've seen.
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Re: Coloured Stock

Unread post by MagikFingerz »

Yeah, I'm pretty sure colored paper stock doesn't exist. Yet. I remember this question being answered before and how it's quite difficult to achieve, but I don't recall the technical details.

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Re: Coloured Stock

Unread post by Mike Ratledge »

It's been asked before, maybe specifically black, but I won't dig it up.

It doesn't exist yet, at least not in the Playing Cards world - at least not a 300 - 310 GSM paper bond stock in the right format. Could someone special order it? Sure, but the minimum order for something like that is 4 metric tonnes. Cost? Not certain, but it shouldn't be much more than plain white. It might be, but only because they can charge more. Chromolux from Germany or stock from a French (casino bond) could easily be colored.

I've seen their papers in cream, silvered, etc. Specific weight, moisture content, etc etc - not yet.
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Re: Coloured Stock

Unread post by chach »

Then there's also the print quality, usually when printing with multiple colors you start with lightest color and proceed through to the darkest one, minimizing bleed through. Printing over a white background is a lot easier than printing over black, same reason why when you are changing the color of a wall or something that's currently a darker shade you would want to put a primer down first then your color.

Sorry, brain isn't really working right now but what I'm trying to say is that printing on dark stock presents a slew of issues that aren't cost effective.
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Re: Coloured Stock

Unread post by mook »

Thanks Guys & Girls,

Sorry if the question has been asked before.

Chach: Good point. I was so engrossed with the stock that I didn't consider the actual print process!
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Re: Coloured Stock

Unread post by Mike Ratledge »

mook wrote:Thanks Guys & Girls,

Sorry if the question has been asked before.

Chach: Good point. I was so engrossed with the stock that I didn't consider the actual print process!
Modern inks, especially metallic - make it a moot point. It's a problem trying to print on black, that's for certain,but certainly not as much as it used to be with the heavy insoluble inks and metallic.

I am not saying that it would be easy, just solvable.
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Re: Coloured Stock

Unread post by MagikFingerz »

mook wrote:Thanks Guys & Girls,

Sorry if the question has been asked before.

Chach: Good point. I was so engrossed with the stock that I didn't consider the actual print process!
Nothing to apologize for. I think most of us would like to see coloured stock become a reality, and for that to happen someone actually have to get the idea in their head and get it done. Perhaps some of our resident designers/producers see this and want to go for an(other) industry first :mrgreen:
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Re: Coloured Stock

Unread post by dazzleguts »

I have vintage Hallmark decks, and a 1930s deck, that have coloured edges. Though the colouring can eventually wear down to the original white paper, it is surprisingly durable and may be a possible solution to having matching card edges.
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Re: Coloured Stock

Unread post by mook »

I noticed that the edges of the Bee Titanium cards have the ink all the way down...
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Re: Coloured Stock (wap)

Unread post by Cbkimble »

I would like to see colored stock in the future but I think right now the issue would be price. Right now white is bought in massive rolls but if someone wanted say blue stock, USPCC/EPCC/MPC aren't going to buy huge stocks of it and take a chance that someone will want it later. If more designers began requesting colored stock it my become viable, but for now I'd say it'd probably double, maybe triple, the price per deck.
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Re: Coloured Stock (wap)

Unread post by Mike Ratledge »

Cbkimble wrote:I would like to see colored stock in the future but I think right now the issue would be price. Right now white is bought in massive rolls but if someone wanted say blue stock, USPCC/EPCC/MPC aren't going to buy huge stocks of it and take a chance that someone will want it later. If more designers began requesting colored stock it my become viable, but for now I'd say it'd probably double, maybe triple, the price per deck.
Cbkimble, while that is true for USPCC in-house decks printed in Q10000+ it's not true for any custom decks, even at USPCC. Their French made webpresses are roll-fed, but German Heidelberg presses for Playing Card Decks printing are all sheet presses no matter if it's them, Expert, Legends or even Liberty or Apollo.

The faster roll-fed Web press could conceivably belch out 400,000 decks a day, assuming that you could keep it running non-stop. They pop out 5 decks a second or 300 per minute.

There are faster SpeedMaster Heidelberg presses but as far as I know, none in this business are roll-fed. There are fast sheet fed units, but not 5/second.
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Re: Coloured Stock

Unread post by Marcus »

The black stock concept has been investigated time and time again throughout the years but there's always at least one huge obstacle - you'd need to be able to place an order of around 200 000+ decks (or probably more, my math is bound to be a bit off considering how tired I am right now) and basically pay up front for USPCC to even bother with considering it.
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Re: Coloured Stock

Unread post by Lotrek »

Colored playing card stock doesn't exist. It would affect printing as the colors change when printed on colored stock. This may be okay for some decks but for the majority of the artwork it's a huge "NO". Besides, if a factory goes for colored stock, the next question is "what color"? And I think this is where the discussion stops.

It would make more sense (and it would also be much cheaper) to find ways to "print" the side of a deck.

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Re: Coloured Stock

Unread post by Mike Ratledge »

#SWTWC chapter 9? Good lord...

Let me know when you are ready torment the masses!

Two things: for some reason I was thinking about Arjowiggins, the French bond paper maker that AFAIK supplies paper in 300-310gsm and others to Expert / Legends and MPC, amongst others - is the parent company of Appleton here in the states. Chromolux (German) papers are made by Metsä Board GmbH. They are owners of Mohawk here in the US. Lord knows who makes bonds for USPCC. That is a closely guarded secret, partly because of the casino security issues. I suppose that they could use a Metsä Board or Arjowiggins stock, but they won't say.

Also, I didn't want to get über technical, but at Lotrek noted, it's not as simple as just switching color of the stock. Just a crude example, but to print properly on black, you would at a minimum have to use some very opaque Cyan, Magenta & Yellow inks plus a white ink. (black ink would be the equivalent of using transparent ink - wouldn't show at all. Complicated by the fact that anything other than a biege or light gray - red, blue or green, for example - would require a different combination of inks each, with the "key" color being the CMYK negative ink of the paper stock color. (and I am grossly over simplifying, except for metallic inks).
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Re: Coloured Stock

Unread post by Marcus »

Lotrek wrote:Colored playing card stock doesn't exist.
That's kind of a weird statement though, since if we're using USPCC as an example here they make their card stock from the paper stock they purchase. Meaning that before they actually laminate the two sides together, there isn't even white card stock. Black playing card stock can very easily be made if they want to do it. Of course the color would need to be something different than the standard CMYK, but that kind of goes without saying since that is always true for colored paper stock.
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Re: Coloured Stock

Unread post by JacksonRobinson »

Lotrek wrote:Colored playing card stock doesn't exist. It would affect printing as the colors change when printed on colored stock. This may be okay for some decks but for the majority of the artwork it's a huge "NO". Besides, if a factory goes for colored stock, the next question is "what color"? And I think this is where the discussion stops.

It would make more sense (and it would also be much cheaper) to find ways to "print" the side of a deck.

And this makes me feel that Something Wicked This Way may come... ;)
I'm not really sure why I drag myself into these convos but as a rule of thumb, no matter how much you may think you know about a subject, you should never say something doesn't exist. Memories are coming back to me of USPCC foil not existing.

Black card stock at the weight needed for playing cards does exist and is out there. I know cuz I've printed on in with completely and ridiculously opaque metallic gold ink that is affected in now way by the sub straight. But as noted last time I posted pics of something I had to prove a point, it didn't count as it wasn't discovered by either lortrek or mike. Come on guys. It's easy just stop saying "it doesn't exist"
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Re: Coloured Stock

Unread post by Mike Ratledge »

JacksonRobinson wrote:I'm not really sure why I drag myself into these convos but as a rule of thumb, no matter how much you may think you know about a subject, you should never say something doesn't exist. Memories are coming back to me of USPCC foil not existing.

Black card stock at the weight needed for playing cards does exist and is out there. I know cuz I've printed on in with completely and ridiculously opaque metallic gold ink that is affected in now way by the sub straight. But as noted last time I posted pics of something I had to prove a point, it didn't count as it wasn't discovered by either lortrek or mike. Come on guys. It's easy just stop saying "it doesn't exist"
Nobody said it couldn't exist, just it wouldn't be practical except using very dense or metallic inks. Pix, please?
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Re: Coloured Stock

Unread post by JacksonRobinson »

Lotrek wrote:Colored playing card stock doesn't exist.
Yes they did say. And practical is besides the point, half the stuff we do in this biz is in no way practical.
Mike Ratledge wrote: Pix, please?
And no this time I will keep my toys to myself as the playing field is a little one way here... Did you guys see those really cool USPCC foil decks. ;)
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Re: Coloured Stock

Unread post by Eoghann »

Do tuck box stock count as playing card stock to some extent? Coz that's some pretty nifty printing on those and they come in all colors.
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Re: Coloured Stock

Unread post by Mike Ratledge »

:?
JacksonRobinson wrote:
Lotrek wrote:Colored playing card stock doesn't exist.
Yes they did say. And practical is besides the point, half the stuff we do in this biz is in no way practical.
Mike Ratledge wrote: Pix, please?
And no this time I will keep my toys to myself as the playing field is a little one way here...

Didn't happen without pictures. (quoting others)

Ref Lotrek's assertion - anyone can print 1 to 50 sheets on simulated bank note stock or whatever. We were talking about commercially available bulk stock made for custom deck makers.

The problem is the minimum order for custom bind stock with the correct weight, moisture content, etc etc. 4 metric tonnes is an ass of paper,
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Did you guys see those really cool USPCC foil decks. ;)
The ones with the glued on UV highlighted not hot stamped pseudo foil? Sure, MPC makes them, also.
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Re: Coloured Stock

Unread post by Lotrek »

This is certainly no field for fighting. Colored playing card stock may exist, nobody can say "I bet my head it doesn't exist" and frankly, I think it's the least interesting thing for a company to produce, as most colors limit the printing options a lot. I'm not saying the result wouldn't be interesting, I'm just saying it's limited. I'm sure someone out there will invest a fortune to produce/order playing card stock in a few colors. No big deal.
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Re: Coloured Stock

Unread post by Marcus »

Mike Ratledge wrote: Didn't happen without pictures. (quoting others)
I've personally seen it. Not revealing pictures before any releases is only sensible, it's business secrets.
Mike Ratledge wrote:Ref Lotrek's assertion - anyone can print 1 to 50 sheets on simulated bank note stock or whatever. We were talking about commercially available bulk stock made for custom deck makers.

The problem is the minimum order for custom bind stock with the correct weight, moisture content, etc etc. 4 metric tonnes is an ass of paper,
It is definitely available in bulk stock. All you need to do is place a large enough order. The whole printing process can be solved, but it's going to cost you.
Mike Ratledge wrote:The ones with the glued on UV highlighted not hot stamped pseudo foil? Sure, MPC makes them, also.
USPCC can produce foiled decks. Is it made by medieval blacksmiths who are melting actual gold and stamp it onto the cards? No. Since the option of traditional hot stamped foil isn't a smooth way to do it they came up with an alternative. Saying that it isn't foil because it doesn't meet the old definition of what hot stamped foil is is kind of beside the point here when we're looking for a way to foil cards, isn't it?

With all this said, I doubt we'll get any further with this considering how specific definitions there are being presented when it comes to both colored stock and foil.
Lotrek wrote:This is certainly no field for fighting. Colored playing card stock may exist, nobody can say "I bet my head it doesn't exist" and frankly, I think it's the least interesting thing for a company to produce, as most colors limit the printing options a lot. I'm not saying the result wouldn't be interesting, I'm just saying it's limited. I'm sure someone out there will invest a fortune to produce/order playing card stock in a few colors. No big deal.
I agree with the limitations of colored stock. There really isn't that much you can do with it (as far as I can think of at least). However I do believe that what can be done could potentially be very nice for us card nerds considering how silly we tend to get over foil. ;)
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Re: Coloured Stock

Unread post by mook »

Stone the crows!

I didn't mean to put the cat among the pigeons!

A lot of very deeply held convictions here when I just wanted to know a bit of trivia. Gosh ;)
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Re: Coloured Stock

Unread post by Marcus »

Haha, I think there's no need to worry as we're all still civil here (at least so far ;) ). Different viewpoints, different experiences and different assumptions on what is meant (for example here what counts as colored stock being available/exist) have a tendency to lead to discussions where both sides believe to be correct.

I think most people can piece together the state of things regarding colored stock from the posts in this thread, so in the end it wasn't for nothing at least. :)
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