The Ritual - Design Revision....help!

[montecarlojoe]

Agreed - that crow pattern was the standout feature of the original design - definitely don't lose it!

For the record I like JoC as she is. Reminds me of Assassins Creed

[Levereno]

That's not a spatter though. That's a murder flocking to form a raven. I kinda like that. If anything I'd like him to go full bleed with that murder of crows so when you fan it, looks badass. but that's just a suggestion.

Whops. Gave it a quick glance never realized it wasn't a spatter Looks unique but dirty. Doesn't really look like a murder flocking (unless you look really closely). He should make it stand out if he's going to keep it.

[Levereno]

Agreed - that crow pattern was the standout feature of the original design - definitely don't lose it!

For the record I like JoC as she is. Reminds me of Assassins Creed

Agreed, but outline should somehow be improved.

[MagikFingerz]

Agreed - that crow pattern was the standout feature of the original design - definitely don't lose it!

For the record I like JoC as she is. Reminds me of Assassins Creed

Agreed with the rest on the general consensus. I also like the JoC, maybe make the QoC's hood white as well so that all clubs have white hoods?

[volantangel]

Haha ive got nothing left to say ! But yea the JoD could really do with less hair in the face. I too like the formation of the large raven with the murder of smaller ravens. I think its a consistent theme and it really should go.

[montecarlojoe]

Another little suggestion - sneak a raven on the number cards too - then there really will be 52 ravens

[wahl0108]

Redo JoD. Also make mask on JoH bigger. And maybe make all the black cards have black masks, it looks funny just having the KoS have a black one.

[52Ravens]

Wow, thanks for all your feedback, having them all side by side has really helped to spot anything outstanding.

I'm taking all the ideas on board and will post the major changes soon (JoD) but I think by that point they will be good to go

Stay tuned

[52Ravens]

Thanks for all the feedback, I've taken onboard a lot of it and the amended designs are below. I think these are pretty much there now, I'm just looking for any mistakes that anyone can spot.

Try making them more even, so all the spades and and heart have white masks and black hoods and the clubs and diamond have white hoods and black masks. The hoods now fit into the robs better a we now have a new JoD.

I do like "The Ritual" for the name of this deck but maybe it's evolved in "The Coven" or "The Covenant", what do you think?

One step closer to going live

[MagikFingerz]

Everything looks incredible! And I agree on the name change - "The Ritual" is sounds like a single event, The Coven sounds better to me.

[Eoghann]

Looking really good!

As far as the title, depends what direction you wanna take it:

Coven: noun
an assembly of witches, especially a group of thirteen.


Covenant:

1.
an agreement, usually formal, between two or more persons to do or not do something specified.
2.
Law. an incidental clause in such an agreement.
3.
Ecclesiastical . a solemn agreement between the members of a church to act together in harmony with the precepts of the gospel.
4.
( initial capital letter ) History/Historical .
a.
National Covenant.
b.
Solemn League and Covenant.
5.
Bible.
a.
the conditional promises made to humanity by God, as revealed in Scripture.
b.
the agreement between God and the ancient Israelites, in which God promised to protect them if they kept His law and were faithful to Him.

I would suggest The Coven.

Perhaps a joker could be the 13th witch, or a sacrifice, or a diptych with them around a fire performing a ritual.

[volantangel]

Perhaps a joker could be the 13th witch, or a sacrifice, or a diptych with them around a fire performing a ritual.

This would make the deck so complete. And honestly not too far off your initial vision (or have we already taken it too far away? Definitely in a good way)

[Sher]

The courts look fantastic. I like the new designs on their robe/clothing. It's more detailed and breaks up the lines so the figures no longer look too geometric.

I like The Coven as a name, too. And I also like Eoghann's idea for the jokers.

For the Ace of spades... Maybe you could consider making it grander than the rest of the aces? Usually the Ace of spades is more elaborate than the rest.

How does the tuck box look? You might want to consider printing on the inside of the tuck, too.

[montecarlojoe]

Perhaps 'Familiar' would fit as a title, as the Ravens seem more of the central theme than the Sorceresses

[52Ravens]

I'm pleased that you all agree, "The Coven" it will now be, defiantly more fitting.

Perhaps a joker could be the 13th witch, or a sacrifice, or a diptych with them around a fire performing a ritual.

A 13th witch would be a good idea for one of the Jokers, maybe a full body version. The murder of ravens as the second? Or maybe something else, who's brains working? I've just finished work and mines done for the day!

This would make the deck so complete. And honestly not too far off your initial vision (or have we already taken it too far away? Definitely in a good way)

No the original vision is still strong, I guess I was being lazy with using the standard design for the court cards, but I'm so glad that you all convinced me to do them.

For the Ace of spades... Maybe you could consider making it grander than the rest of the aces? Usually the Ace of spades is more elaborate than the rest.

I think this needs to happen, thanks. I've also enquired about printing on the inside of the tuck box, I too think it would be a nice touch, I'll let you guys know more soon.

Perhaps 'Familiar' would fit as a title, as the Ravens seem more of the central theme than the Sorceresses

Totally see where you are coming form here, but maybe "The Coven" will be more mainstream. As a weirdo I know what a familiar is but would the adverse person? Having said that, a witches familiar deck of cards is a cool idea for a theme....hmmm

Before I complete the tuck box design, can I just ask, on a scale of 1-10 how bothered are you that it will be a Bicycle branded deck? Does is matter? Do you prefer USPCC over say EPCC or another printer?

Personally I like the Bicycle brand and will more than likey go with them, but it'll be good to hear some opinions.

Thanks for all the feedback guys, hopefully a tweak to the backs to look at soon

[Eoghann]

Familiar is a very interesting suggestion. But I have to agree if you're not that well versed in the terminology, it could get lost.

I'm leaning towards the 13th witch and a murder of crows. Or a single raven but that won't have as much impact I guess.

Every printer has pros and cons. I'm sure the majority will agree that USPCC should be the way to go. But lately they've been delaying projects a lot. But The community seems to be warming up to EPCC. Lower project goals with them. Personally I'd prefer an unbranded tuck to leave more room for badass artwork but it's your call really. Depends on if it goes well with the design you're working on I guess. If it's like a leather bound book look I'd prefer unbranded.

[Godzillian]

Before I complete the tuck box design, can I just ask, on a scale of 1-10 how bothered are you that it will be a Bicycle branded deck? Does is matter? Do you prefer USPCC over say EPCC or another printer?

Personally I like the Bicycle brand and will more than likey go with them, but it'll be good to hear some opinions.

Thanks for all the feedback guys, hopefully a tweak to the backs to look at soon

I prefer EPCC over Bicycle because the handling's great. I think you'll also have a better time with EPCC in terms of registration and long-lasting quality. My Exquisites of 6 months old have still not worn out! But please, for the love of God, if you go with EPCC, do not do this ridiculous "LIMITED 1000 DECKS!!!" trend. And I hope this deck is not $20/deck, because we have too many of that.

If you go USPC/Bicycle, I can accept that as well, but they're less flexible with print runs and their registration is piss poor. I don't know about recent times, but the Black Whispering Imps is a good example of how bad the registration can be, depending on how small your borders are. With Bicycle, you get the recognition from the brand... and that's about it. Oh, and there's some diehardcore USPC fans that won't go for anything that's not USPC.

I'm sure the majority will agree that USPCC should be the way to go. But lately they've been delaying projects a lot. But The community seems to be warming up to EPCC. Lower project goals with them.

Then I guess I'm in the minority! The NOC V3s have convinced me that EPCC is the way to go. If USPC still had that Ohio quality, I would be less inclined to be pro-EPCC. And for those who argue that there's not much difference between USPC Ohio and USPC Kentucky, I call BS on that. I can handle Ohio decks for months, but Kentucky decks will die out in a week or less. This is easily reproducable as an experiment for anyone who wants to disagree with me

[Eoghann]

Oh, when I said the majority I didn't include myself. I can go either way. But I'd lean more towards EPCC for the flexibility they currently offer. Pretty straightforward process, no hurdles or set limits to reach. Plus it can be a very low campaign goal to make sure it funds and not an 18K goal.

[volantangel]

I'm leaning towards the 13th witch and a murder of crows. Or a single raven but that won't have as much impact I guess.

How about a murder of crows transforming into a witch, sort of like how vampires turn into bats. Or do witches strictly not do this ?

[Godzillian]

Oh hold on, I thought you were going to go with a clean marble front (courts/numcards), and less speckle and spatter? The latest pic you posted shows otherwise.

[dazzleguts]

Just playing with the language:

Correct terms for flocks of ravens are a conspiracy of ravens, an unkindness of ravens, or a constable of ravens. Since the ravens are familiars - as a group they would be a conspiracy of familiars, an unkindness of familiars, or a constable of familiars.

[DragonSoul]

Wow, finally caught up on this thread. I love the new courts and I will definitely be pledging for these!

Personally, I like the Bicycle brand. I will still buy EPCC but, I'm not as impressed with them as other folks. I particularly dislike how they've been priced higher than USPCC lately. I also dislike the side opening tuck option. So, more than likely if it's EPCC I'll buy a single deck. If it's USPCC I'll buy at least 2. I like Eoghann's suggestion of an unbranded "book" design. Maybe as a stretch goal?

[Godzillian]

DragonSoul, many of your gripes with EPCC has nothing to do with EPCC... Maybe handling-wise, sure, but below are the points you listed out why you don't like EPCC, and I've replied to each.

I particularly dislike how they've been priced higher than USPCC lately.

This is up to the designer, not EPCC themselves. EPCC just gives them the production quote, but they don't tell the designer "Hey, your deck must be sold at $20 per deck". That's up to the designer. 52Ravens can decide to price his deck at $10, at 15, at 20... it's his discretion. Heck, he can go for USPC and still price his deck at $20 if he wants (please don't!)

I also dislike the side opening tuck option.

I think EPCC has tuck cases that are regular toploaders, like the Legends and Gnostics. Sideloaders are just a trend. The designer can choose not to use a sideloader and go for a regular toploader instead.

[DragonSoul]

True, the price isn't up to EPCC. So, that was more of a general gripe to take into consideration when he is setting up his campaign.

Yes, I know that the side opening tuck is an option. Again, I'm just saying that it isn't one that I like.

I've said this before in other threads so, I didn't repeat it. But, the main reason I don't like EPCC is because the few I've gotten have had:
1. A VERY strong disagreeable chemical odor.
2. They leave a weird waxy/oily residue on my fingers.
I'm very sensitive to both touch and smell but, there are plenty of people out there who aren't bothered by them the way I am.

I'm not a cardist however, those who are seem to really like the handling of them. I collect for the art so, it's very rare for me to buy more than 2 of any deck (1 to open, 1 to keep). The exceptions have been exceptional artwork like Heretic (which is EPCC) and decks from Uusi, Jackson Robinson, Shane Tyree, Chris Ovdiyenko...

I also like the Bicycle logo. I'm not restricted to it but, I like the connection to other decks and the long history of USPCC. I get that it restricts the artwork but, some decks look better with the logo.

All my humble opinions, of course.

[Godzillian]

True, the price isn't up to EPCC. So, that was more of a general gripe to take into consideration when he is setting up his campaign.

Yes, I know that the side opening tuck is an option. Again, I'm just saying that it isn't one that I like.

I've said this before in other threads so, I didn't repeat it. But, the main reason I don't like EPCC is because the few I've gotten have had:
1. A VERY strong disagreeable chemical odor.
2. They leave a weird waxy/oily residue on my fingers.
I'm very sensitive to both touch and smell but, there are plenty of people out there who aren't bothered by them the way I am.

I'm not a cardist however, those who are seem to really like the handling of them. I collect for the art so, it's very rare for me to buy more than 2 of any deck (1 to open, 1 to keep). The exceptions have been exceptional artwork like Heretic (which is EPCC) and decks from Uusi, Jackson Robinson, Shane Tyree, Chris Ovdiyenko...

I also like the Bicycle logo. I'm not restricted to it but, I like the connection to other decks and the long history of USPCC. I get that it restricts the artwork but, some decks look better with the logo.

All my humble opinions, of course.

What EPCC decks do you have? I think the more recent ones don't smell as bad as older EPCC productions, like Legends (those were really bad...) The NOC V3s barely smelled at all.

I understand where you're coming from with the weird residue. I get that too, but I've gotten used to it, more or less. Are your hands dry? Mine are, and at first that's why I thought some people could feel the weirdness and some couldn't.

On topic though, when is this being released on KS? Make sure not to collide with other popular releases / Kickstarters, unless you feel up to a challenge!

[Mike Ratledge]

It just doesn't exist any more. I don't know what the chemical smell/residue was - but it's no longer in their decks.

[52Ravens]

Ok, so I loved the idea of having a 13th witch and I was going to have her forming form the ravens but what I was creating wasn't sitting well with me. Plus the fact that it left me with another Joker that would have a totally different look, but I feel the Jokers need to be the same or at least compliment each other. SO, below is what I have for your judging eyes. At least this way I get the full detail of the ravens forming and splitting the design over both cards adds a nice little touch....I hope haha!

Well it looks like the printers is all a matter of opinion as I thought it would be. USPCC gives me the bonus of a brand that is known world wide and has dedicated collectors, while EPCC has a lot more freedom. Does anyone know if EPCC print in the US?

I've contacted EPCC, and after 48 hours I'm still waiting for a reply....I'll keep you posted

[Eoghann]

Keep that design, it's fantastic. But to complete the coven how about a high priest on one side, high priestess on the other? They are after all the coven leaders. Perhaps joining hands at the center, with the raven behind them.

[montecarlojoe]

I think that may be in danger of over complicating things - the jokers are perfect!

[sprouts1115]

You need a Major and a Minor Joker. The quick fix is just to change the "Joker" to red on one of the cards. Simple fix. Most Jokers are "1-sided" but they like to make them identical for so reason. To me, It's like lets put the 4 suits on the back of the card and have a "1-sided" back of card. Yea, that looks great without knowing the rules....