The Ritual - Design Revision....help!

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Re: The Ritual - Design Revision....help!

Unread post by dazzleguts »

Just playing with the language:

Correct terms for flocks of ravens are a conspiracy of ravens, an unkindness of ravens, or a constable of ravens. Since the ravens are familiars - as a group they would be a conspiracy of familiars, an unkindness of familiars, or a constable of familiars.
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Re: The Ritual - Design Revision....help!

Unread post by DragonSoul »

Wow, finally caught up on this thread. I love the new courts and I will definitely be pledging for these!

Personally, I like the Bicycle brand. I will still buy EPCC but, I'm not as impressed with them as other folks. I particularly dislike how they've been priced higher than USPCC lately. I also dislike the side opening tuck option. So, more than likely if it's EPCC I'll buy a single deck. If it's USPCC I'll buy at least 2. I like Eoghann's suggestion of an unbranded "book" design. Maybe as a stretch goal?
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Re: The Ritual - Design Revision....help!

Unread post by Godzillian »

DragonSoul, many of your gripes with EPCC has nothing to do with EPCC... Maybe handling-wise, sure, but below are the points you listed out why you don't like EPCC, and I've replied to each.
DragonSoul wrote:I particularly dislike how they've been priced higher than USPCC lately.
This is up to the designer, not EPCC themselves. EPCC just gives them the production quote, but they don't tell the designer "Hey, your deck must be sold at $20 per deck". That's up to the designer. 52Ravens can decide to price his deck at $10, at 15, at 20... it's his discretion. Heck, he can go for USPC and still price his deck at $20 if he wants (please don't!)
DragonSoul wrote:I also dislike the side opening tuck option.

I think EPCC has tuck cases that are regular toploaders, like the Legends and Gnostics. Sideloaders are just a trend. The designer can choose not to use a sideloader and go for a regular toploader instead.
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Re: The Ritual - Design Revision....help!

Unread post by DragonSoul »

True, the price isn't up to EPCC. So, that was more of a general gripe to take into consideration when he is setting up his campaign.

Yes, I know that the side opening tuck is an option. Again, I'm just saying that it isn't one that I like.

I've said this before in other threads so, I didn't repeat it. But, the main reason I don't like EPCC is because the few I've gotten have had:
1. A VERY strong disagreeable chemical odor.
2. They leave a weird waxy/oily residue on my fingers.
I'm very sensitive to both touch and smell but, there are plenty of people out there who aren't bothered by them the way I am.

I'm not a cardist however, those who are seem to really like the handling of them. I collect for the art so, it's very rare for me to buy more than 2 of any deck (1 to open, 1 to keep). The exceptions have been exceptional artwork like Heretic (which is EPCC) and decks from Uusi, Jackson Robinson, Shane Tyree, Chris Ovdiyenko...

I also like the Bicycle logo. I'm not restricted to it but, I like the connection to other decks and the long history of USPCC. I get that it restricts the artwork but, some decks look better with the logo.

All my humble opinions, of course. :)
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Re: The Ritual - Design Revision....help!

Unread post by Godzillian »

DragonSoul wrote:True, the price isn't up to EPCC. So, that was more of a general gripe to take into consideration when he is setting up his campaign.

Yes, I know that the side opening tuck is an option. Again, I'm just saying that it isn't one that I like.

I've said this before in other threads so, I didn't repeat it. But, the main reason I don't like EPCC is because the few I've gotten have had:
1. A VERY strong disagreeable chemical odor.
2. They leave a weird waxy/oily residue on my fingers.
I'm very sensitive to both touch and smell but, there are plenty of people out there who aren't bothered by them the way I am.

I'm not a cardist however, those who are seem to really like the handling of them. I collect for the art so, it's very rare for me to buy more than 2 of any deck (1 to open, 1 to keep). The exceptions have been exceptional artwork like Heretic (which is EPCC) and decks from Uusi, Jackson Robinson, Shane Tyree, Chris Ovdiyenko...

I also like the Bicycle logo. I'm not restricted to it but, I like the connection to other decks and the long history of USPCC. I get that it restricts the artwork but, some decks look better with the logo.

All my humble opinions, of course. :)
What EPCC decks do you have? I think the more recent ones don't smell as bad as older EPCC productions, like Legends (those were really bad...) The NOC V3s barely smelled at all.

I understand where you're coming from with the weird residue. I get that too, but I've gotten used to it, more or less. Are your hands dry? Mine are, and at first that's why I thought some people could feel the weirdness and some couldn't.

On topic though, when is this being released on KS? Make sure not to collide with other popular releases / Kickstarters, unless you feel up to a challenge!
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Re: The Ritual - Design Revision....help!

Unread post by Mike Ratledge »

It just doesn't exist any more. I don't know what the chemical smell/residue was - but it's no longer in their decks.
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Re: The Ritual - Design Revision....help!

Unread post by 52Ravens »

Ok, so I loved the idea of having a 13th witch and I was going to have her forming form the ravens but what I was creating wasn't sitting well with me. Plus the fact that it left me with another Joker that would have a totally different look, but I feel the Jokers need to be the same or at least compliment each other. SO, below is what I have for your judging eyes. At least this way I get the full detail of the ravens forming and splitting the design over both cards adds a nice little touch....I hope haha!

Well it looks like the printers is all a matter of opinion as I thought it would be. USPCC gives me the bonus of a brand that is known world wide and has dedicated collectors, while EPCC has a lot more freedom. Does anyone know if EPCC print in the US?

I've contacted EPCC, and after 48 hours I'm still waiting for a reply....I'll keep you posted

http://www.52ravens.com/forumimages/jokers.jpg
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Re: The Ritual - Design Revision....help!

Unread post by Eoghann »

Keep that design, it's fantastic. But to complete the coven how about a high priest on one side, high priestess on the other? They are after all the coven leaders. Perhaps joining hands at the center, with the raven behind them.
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Re: The Ritual - Design Revision....help!

Unread post by montecarlojoe »

I think that may be in danger of over complicating things - the jokers are perfect!
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Re: The Ritual - Design Revision....help!

Unread post by sprouts1115 »

You need a Major and a Minor Joker. The quick fix is just to change the "Joker" to red on one of the cards. Simple fix. Most Jokers are "1-sided" but they like to make them identical for so reason. To me, It's like lets put the 4 suits on the back of the card and have a "1-sided" back of card. Yea, that looks great without knowing the rules....
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Re: The Ritual - Design Revision....help!

Unread post by DragonSoul »

Hey Kirk,

I really like the diptypch jokers but the light center bothers me. It seems like the center should actually be darker and more solid as the flock comes together to form a new entity. Per Sprouts suggestion perhaps the background and the "Joker" indices could be different colors. It might be worth trying the fade in the center on the background artwork so that it gives an ombre effect. (i.e. the "Joker" indices would be two different dark colors and the background image would each fade toward the center and be more gray where they meet.)

As far as a 13th member of the coven, why not on a gaff card?


Mike and Godzillian, I'm looking forward to receiving Heretic to see if the smell & residue is better. It was particularly bad on my Zenith decks. (Another deck which was bad was the Kraken Rum deck. I don't know if EPCC did those but they have the same odor and residue and so far I haven't run across it on any other non USPCC decks.) Based on what everybody has since said, I'm glad I don't have any of the old Legends decks! And yes, I have very dry non-sweaty hands.
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Re: The Ritual - Design Revision....help!

Unread post by 52Ravens »

I went back to the original idea of the witch forming form the ravens and I just can't nail it! So I'll be sticking with the below as I'm more than happy with the way it looks, and as you'll notice the 13th witch is hiding within, too cheesy?

I've filled in a questionnaire from EPCC and I'm waiting to hear but again. This is kind of holding me back a little as I don't want to draw up some box artwork for bicycle only to find that I'm not going with USPCC any more so bear with me

Whats everyones favorite gaff card? I'm leaning towards a double backer as it the most common but honestly I never use it!

http://www.52ravens.com/forumimages/jokers2.jpg
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Re: The Ritual - Design Revision....help!

Unread post by Godzillian »

I should also mention that EPCC seems to print decks in 54, no 56. Can someone please confirm this or deny this? Mike?
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Re: The Ritual - Design Revision....help!

Unread post by volantangel »

Godzillian wrote:I should also mention that EPCC seems to print decks in 54, no 56. Can someone please confirm this or deny this? Mike?
Haha you can go over, I've checked with them. But the standard is 54, 56,57 are all possible but it's an extra cost :)
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Re: The Ritual - Design Revision....help!

Unread post by Godzillian »

volantangel wrote:
Godzillian wrote:I should also mention that EPCC seems to print decks in 54, no 56. Can someone please confirm this or deny this? Mike?
Haha you can go over, I've checked with them. But the standard is 54, 56,57 are all possible but it's an extra cost :)
Thanks Volant :D Good to know for the future.

I'm quite fond of the double-backer since there's a few simple tricks I can do with them. I like card reveals too, but I feel like they just tell the spectator "Hey, I definitely forced this card on you. If you have doubts, here's a card reveal to prove it!".

Maybe a King or Jack where they have their mask down, revealing that they really are female? This would allow color changes and stuff like that.
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Re: The Ritual - Design Revision....help!

Unread post by Eoghann »

Kind of like the Lotrek Venexiana jokers. I like those. :)
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Re: The Ritual - Design Revision....help!

Unread post by 52Ravens »

Is it just me or do EPCC just take forever to respond to emails? Trying to get a quote is like trying to get blood from a stone!

Emailed them requesting a quote, got a response a couple of days later to fill in a questionnaire. I did this straight away and emailed to let them know I had completed it. Then nothing, so I emailed to find out whats going on two days ago and I still have nothing. This process has taken two weeks! It doesn't put much confidence towards them producing the cards for me.

Ok, rant over!

Aside from waiting around for EPCC I've been working away on the video/advert to add a little spice to the kickstarter project. Below are a couple of screenshots to tease you with.

So until EPCC come back to me I'm holding back from getting ready to launch or even to start a box design as I feel that the outcome of this depends on who I go with for production.

Bear with me ;)

http://www.52ravens.com/forumimages/ad1.jpg

http://www.52ravens.com/forumimages/ad2.jpg

http://www.52ravens.com/forumimages/ad3.jpg

http://www.52ravens.com/forumimages/ad4.jpg

http://www.52ravens.com/forumimages/ad5.jpg
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Re: The Ritual - Design Revision....help!

Unread post by Eoghann »

SIIIIIICKK! :drool:

You've got a winner! :)
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Re: The Ritual - Design Revision....help!

Unread post by th4mo »

Wow, forget the deck... you should be making movies! I want to see more! :D

Kidding about the deck, of course! ;)

I don't know how this thread got away from me for so long, but your art and overall execution of this concept are A-maz-ing!

Great tips from everyone else along the way, and great job incorporating those suggestions in your own style.

As long as you are able to get the word out, I think you will have a hugely successful KS campaign! (you can count me in for a few, at least!).

Keep your pricing reasonable, and i don't care what printer you go with... but i tend to prefer non-branded tucks.
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Re: The Ritual - Design Revision....help!

Unread post by Marcus »

Can't believe I've completely missed this design up until now. I really like it, gonna do my best to remember to pledge for this one.

As for the Bicycle branding, I'd recommend against it. Mostly because it costs more and I've never seen a deck where it actually added anything in particular.
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Re: The Ritual - Design Revision....help!

Unread post by wahl0108 »

Could I recommend removing the deck name and website from the left joker? I feel it takes away from the design and the info is already present on the other one. Is it possible to work in a reveal in that spot instead?
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Re: The Ritual - Design Revision....help!

Unread post by 52Ravens »

Thanks for the positive feedback guys
wahl0108 wrote:Could I recommend removing the deck name and website from the left joker? I feel it takes away from the design and the info is already present on the other one. Is it possible to work in a reveal in that spot instead?
Its defiantly something I would consider if its something that others would prefer. What sort of reveal are you thinking of?
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Re: The Ritual - Design Revision....help!

Unread post by SuicideKing »

Player point of view: We must be able to differentiate the major and minor jokers instantly... not in 2 seconds, instantly. The two parts of the diptych jokers must be more different. This can be done simply by changing the color (red?) of one "joker" indice. Or by a reveal instead of the website on one joker.
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Re: The Ritual - Design Revision....help!

Unread post by wahl0108 »

It might be difficult to do a reveal since it is a diptych though and someone could notice that now the ravens are on the right instead of on the left. Still something is bugging me about it though :/
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Re: The Ritual - Design Revision....help!

Unread post by montecarlojoe »

I agree the name and website don't add anything to the design. I guess the ad cards (if available) could reproduce the jokers with a reveal?

A reveal across 2 sets of diptychs would be a unique feature I think.
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Re: The Ritual - Design Revision....help!

Unread post by 52Ravens »

Good news! EPCC have got back to me and a quote is now moving forward. they are extremely busy at the moment which is good to see as it shows they are growing.

I've had a quick look at the Jokers, the half black and half red are shockingly bad, and the ones with just the text "Joker" on them seem a little bland, so I think I'll be going with the second one. Its only subtle with the text being red but I think it'll be enough to keep me happy haha but I still appreciate your honest opinions.

http://www.52ravens.com/forumimages/cards-joker-red2.jpg

http://www.52ravens.com/forumimages/cards-joker-red1.jpg

http://www.52ravens.com/forumimages/cards-joker-red3.jpg
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Re: The Ritual - Design Revision....help!

Unread post by Marcus »

Image
I might be in the minority here, but I found this one to be surprisingly nice. This gets my vote.
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Re: The Ritual - Design Revision....help!

Unread post by montecarlojoe »

I wouldn't be against it. There's certainly a tribal, ritualistic feel to it with one side of the face painted in blood... WITHOUT the face it might not work so well.
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Re: The Ritual - Design Revision....help!

Unread post by MagikFingerz »

If you choose NOT to go with separate colors, I'd prefer the one with joker indices rather than just the word "joker" in the middle.

If you DO choose to go with separate colors, I think maybe a slightly darker red would work better.
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Re: The Ritual - Design Revision....help!

Unread post by wahl0108 »

I like the first, maybe have the twelve courts facing the rising witch at the bottom watching her appear?
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