To Bicycle or not to Bicycle?

[Soliloquy]

About how much does using the Bicycle brand add to the cost of producing the deck?

[BMPokerworld]

About how much does using the Bicycle brand add to the cost of producing the deck?

About $.75 per deck.

Thanks!

[Lotrek]

I think about $0,50- $0,75 per deck.

[RSLancastr]

It has only been in the past 2 or 3 years that modern Bikes have caught my eye, and I got caught up in the craze.

You sold out, man

Guilty as charged!

But, in my defense, I have bought many non-Bikes in the past few months (Witness all the Miniature Peanuts decks, M&M decks and all the Christmas-themed decks I posted in the "Look what I recently added to my collection" thread, leading one poster to accuse me of buying just about anything).

Truth is, my collection's focus is on decks with non-standard (custom) courts, but I get "side-tracked" from time to time by other categories (Transformation decks, Philibert decks, Dondorf decks, Christmas-themed decks, miniature decks, etc.) as the mood strikes me.

Bikes have been the biggest such "sidetrack" I've ever been on (both in terms of the number of decks I've bought and the months I've spent pursuing it) in all the time I've been collecting. This is both because of the large variety of affordable&available decks within that category, and because a fair percentage of them (say, 20%) have non-standard courts, thus assuaging my guilt over being sidetracked.

[Lotrek]

My decks will always have custom courts, so I hope I'll manage to sell you guys a few!

[RSLancastr]

Pardon my ignorance Lotrek, but what are the decks you have designed to date?

[Collector]

Pardon my ignorance Lotrek, but what are the decks you have designed to date?

Timeless
http://www.rsvpmagic.com/timeless-deck- ... -in-stock/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Bicycle Butterfly
http://www.rsvpmagic.com/butterfly-deck/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

-------------------------
I don't care about "Bicycle" brand at all. Lower price will be more important. Lotrek, don't spoil your design -

...
That's exactly my problem: The theme and the style of my deck doesn't go with the "bicycle" logo...

[BMPokerworld]

Pardon my ignorance Lotrek, but what are the decks you have designed to date?

Timeless
http://www.rsvpmagic.com/timeless-deck- ... -in-stock/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

Bicycle Butterfly
http://www.rsvpmagic.com/butterfly-deck/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

-------------------------
I don't care about "Bicycle" brand at all. Lower price will be more important. Lotrek, don't spoil your design -

...
That's exactly my problem: The theme and the style of my deck doesn't go with the "bicycle" logo...

I haven't seen that happen yet. Whatever someone saves from not using the Bicycle brand, does not seem to get passed on to the customer. It just gets pocketed by the deck creator.

Honestly, I have yet to see a design that would not have worked with the Bicycle logo on it.

Thanks!

[Lotrek]

@collector: Thanks!

If everything goes well the price will definitely be reasonable. I'm not fond of the "If you like my design sell your house" style!

[RSLancastr]

I haven't seen that happen yet. Whatever someone saves from not using the Bicycle brand, does not seem to get passed on to the customer. It just gets pocketed by the deck creator.

Honestly, I have yet to see a design that would not have worked with the Bicycle logo on it.

I've been thinking the same thing, Mike.

Does anyone have an example of a deck where they feel that the Bicycle Logo did not work with the design?

Personally, I think of the Logo as seperate from the theme. Certainly there are times when the Logo is more successfully worked into the tuck art (or, actually, where the tuck art is more successfully worked around the Logo), but I can't think of a time where the logo did not "work" with the design.

And I would think that were that to happen, it would be more the "fault" of the tuck art's designer, rather than the Logo's fault.

[RSLancastr]

Lotrek, I don't own a copy of "Timeless", but "Butterfly" is one of my very favorite Bikes! Well done!!

[Lotrek]

BMpokerworld wrote:

"I haven't seen that happen yet. Whatever someone saves from not using the Bicycle brand, does not seem to get passed on to the customer. It just gets pocketed by the deck creator.

Honestly, I have yet to see a design that would not have worked with the Bicycle logo on it."

- Well, using Bicycle brand or not, is primarily a matter of taste for me and secondary a matter of cost. I feel that the deck I'm working on, would kick the logo. However, this is not the case for other decks I have in mind. But I think that getting rid of the design restrictions that the logo imposes, I have much more space for creativity.

[Lotrek]

Lotrek, I don't own a copy of "Timeless", but "Butterfly" is one of my very favorite Bikes! Well done!!

Go get one NOW!

Thanks for your words of appreciation! I'll try to not let you down with the next one.

[Collector]

I haven't seen that happen yet. Whatever someone saves from not using the Bicycle brand, does not seem to get passed on to the customer. It just gets pocketed by the deck creator.

So it's on one's conscience. In general I can agree with your statement - BUT... Lotrek didn't have any project on Kickstarter so we don't know how he will calculate his prices. In terms of this I don't think that the argument is valid for this particular discussion.

Honestly, I have yet to see a design that would not have worked with the Bicycle logo on it.

Does anyone have an example of a deck where they feel that the Bicycle Logo did not work with the design?

...And I would think that were that to happen, it would be more the "fault" of the tuck art's designer, rather than the Logo's fault.

1. The wrong question. A right question - Does anyone have an example of a deck where they feel that without the Bicycle Logo it'is really bad?
Small hints: Seasons Playing Cards, Sentinels, Bohemia, Ornates, Medusa, Mana, Tendril.
And in general why do all those decks exist? They all are without "Bicycle" logo.

2. @RSLancastr, try to consider your own last sentence again and you will have to understand that your comment doesn't correspond to the essence of the Lotrek's problem. Any talented designer will nicely incorporate "Bicycle" logo in his design in case of necessity. But it doesn't mean that he won't have to spoil his original design idea because of that.

[Lotrek]

collector wrote:
"2. @RSLancastr, try to consider your own last sentence again and you will have to understand that your comment doesn't correspond to the essence of the Lotrek's problem. Any talented designer will nicely incorporate "Bicycle" logo in his design in case of necessity. But it doesn't mean that he won't have to spoil his original design idea because of that."

100% agree collector! That's exactly the point. The discussion about the B. logo is more general. I don't complain about the logo being bad for my design! On the contrary, I believe that it's a very nice and successful logo which can accommodate many different designs. We don't see many box designs with the B. logo badly related to the design, because these decks are usually crappy and don't get funded, or are denied by the USPCC.

My main concern is how much can really the B. logo boost an already good design.

[MagikFingerz]

Seasons Playing Cards, Sentinels, Bohemia, Ornates, Medusa, Mana, Tendril.

These are all decks without the Bicycle logo that have (overall) been very successful. Would the logo have added more to that success, or lessened it? It's hard to say, but I personally think some of the originality and identity of the designer (regarding the designer as a "brand" of his own) gets lost by adding such a widely known logo as the Bicycle one. They might have sold as much or even more, but not to the same people, and not for the same reasons.

That's what I think, anyway.

[Lotrek]

Tom, I totally agree with your statement. One can't sell to everybody. You build a profile as a designer (and part of this is the use or not of the B. logo) and then different people decide if they like that profile. Some will find the decks worth buying, some others won't.

[BMPokerworld]

1. The wrong question. A right question - Does anyone have an example of a deck where they feel that without the Bicycle Logo it'is really bad?
Small hints: Seasons Playing Cards, Sentinels, Bohemia, Ornates, Medusa, Mana, Tendril.
And in general why do all those decks exist? They all are without "Bicycle" logo.

First of all, I didn't say a deck shouldn't or doesn't exist without a Bicycle Logo. Learn to read what people post. Secondly, we never saw those decks with a Bicycle logo, that I recall, for comparison. Thirdly, this is a subjective discussion and one that is personal and cannot be argued with facts. It is the same thing as having the same design only in different colors. Some people like it and some don't.

EDIT:

So it's on one's conscience. In general I can agree with your statement - BUT... Lotrek didn't have any project on Kickstarter so we don't know how he will calculate his prices. In terms of this I don't think that the argument is valid for this particular discussion.

EDIT: Did I say Him? No I said I haven't it seen done yet. If you spent more time reading the post thoroughly, you might actually get something right. It was a general statement and it is relevant to the discussion. To me, the issue with you from your statements is, you just want it as cheaply as possible no matter how it looks. Maybe he could just cut the cards from regular pieces of paper and save you a whole bunch of money. Would that work for you?

Thanks!

[RandyButterfield]

I'm enjoying reading through this thread!

Here's my thoughts on the ongoing Bicycle vs. Non-Bicycle debate.

I think if the Courts are unique and different than the norm, then the Deck should have it's own brand. If the Court designs originate or are influenced from Bicycle Faces then the Deck should be Bicycle branded (Americana, Revision 1...). Back when I first showed the ORNATES on the Forums they were Bicycle branded. When HOPC contacted me, the only request/feedback they had was to remove the Bicycle logo since they didn't think it needed it. I caught a lot of flack at the beginning for doing it, but I'm glad they remained Non-Bicycle as the ORNATE Courts are very different than Bike Faces and would've been out of place.

thanks, Randy

[BMPokerworld]

I'm enjoying reading through this thread!

Here's my thoughts on the ongoing Bicycle vs. Non-Bicycle debate.

I think if the Courts are unique and different than the norm, then the Deck should have it's own brand. If the Court designs originate or are influenced from Bicycle Faces then the Deck should be Bicycle branded (Americana, Revision 1...). Back when I first showed the ORNATES on the Forums they were Bicycle branded. When HOPC contacted me, the only request/feedback they had was to remove the Bicycle logo since they didn't think it needed it. I caught a lot of flack at the beginning for doing it, but I'm glad they remained Non-Bicycle as the ORNATE Courts are very different than Bike Faces and would've been out of place.

thanks, Randy

Like I said in my post above, it is a personal opinion. Honestly, I liked you decks much better when they had the Bicycle logo on them and not as much when they didn't. Does that mean they weren't a well designed deck? Absolutely not. I just prefer decks that use the Bicycle brand name. Are there going to be people who feel the opposite? Sure and that is what makes all hobbies great. Everyone gets to collect what they like.

Thanks!

[MagikFingerz]

I think if the Courts are unique and different than the norm, then the Deck should have it's own brand. If the Court designs originate or are influenced from Bicycle Faces then the Deck should be Bicycle branded (Americana, Revision 1...).

I think this is a great non-official guideline to go by, Randy. It makes complete sense to me, anyway

[BMPokerworld]

I think if the Courts are unique and different than the norm, then the Deck should have it's own brand. If the Court designs originate or are influenced from Bicycle Faces then the Deck should be Bicycle branded (Americana, Revision 1...).

I think this is a great non-official guideline to go by, Randy. It makes complete sense to me, anyway

As I said in one of my earlier post in this thread, the creator has to use a design that they think looks the best. If the designer thinks their deck looks best with or without the Bicycle logo, then that is the way they should go. They shouldn't be worried about doing it the cheapest way possible, they should worry about creating a great looking deck.

Thanks!

[RSLancastr]

I would add to that, Mike:

They should be far more concerned about the design of the cards than about the design of the box anyway.

You can have the coolest box ever, but a sucky deck inside is sttill a sucky deck.

[BMPokerworld]

I would add to that, Mike:

They should be far more concerned about the design of the cards than about the design of the box anyway.

You can have the coolest box ever, but a sucky deck inside is sttill a sucky deck.

I 100% agree, but this thread is about the tuck box and not the cards themselves.

Thanks!

[RSLancastr]

True, I just didn't want any designers reading this thread to lose sight of that.

[Collector]

Mike (BMPokerWorld), I am sure the second part of your last message aimed at me is an obvious attempt to outrage. Bold type? Why not red color and capitalized letters? As a quite old member of UC I’ll do you (as a new admin of UC) a favour and I won’t quote that message. I hope you’ll read that my message again and carefully, will really understand its content and than will edit the second part of your appropriate comment – will amend your boorishness. I always read others messages. But I am afraid you don’t. And I understood everything in your message quoted by me very well. But you didn’t understand (or even didn’t want to understand – I don’t know) nothing in my message.

I visit forums to communicate with mature and courteous people who share my hobby. I have my own opinion and respect others opinions. But I don’t see any sense to start and to take part in any wrangling on forums and I don’t understand why it’s necessary to outrage people with a different view.

I haven’t been commenting on new UC for some time. I just read all those “bloody” and belligerent messages aimed at Discourse and some other people, companies. By the way Discourse isn’t Alex – it’s a community of people. And I am sure some of that people are even unfamiliar to UC’s members. Unfortunately all those messages could be summarized in one simple motto “UC is the best of the best– all other around are a pile of shit”. I was really surprised (especially by some old friends on UC), even shocked a little. But happily I saw new messages proposing to stop all that disgraceful very soon. Than I thought “Who-o, I guess it was bad weather and temporary insanity. I glad to see familiar features of old UC in new UC.”

I made several active comments on new UC yesterday. And I have to ask myself if I want to take part in new UC today...

[CBJ]

I think there are some great designs that don't have the Bicycle name... arcane, artifice, rebels, artisan, seasons.

But.. being a Bicycle fan.. I'm also more willing to buy Bikes!


And.. I wish the Ornates would have kept the "Bicycle" branding...











CBJ

[BMPokerworld]

Collector wrote:

I made several active comments on new UC yesterday. And I have to ask myself if I want to take part in new UC today...

You have to do whatever is best for you. Either way, I am sure everyone will understand. Clearly you do not understand my posts. You think, and wrongly by the way I might add, that the issue with Alex is because he runs another forum. If you actually read and understood my posts as you say you do, you would understand my problem with Alex is that he is a liar, a con-artist and a thief who tried to rip me off for $600 worth of cards. There are still people who have not received their vortex decks even though a year has come and gone since he had them in his possession. And the reason is_______________ (Fill in with any of the number of lies Alex has thrown out there). But I guess you drink the Kool Aid over there like some of the other people who blindly follow him no matter what. I actually don't expect you to understand what I am saying, just like you didn't understand when you copied my blog posts and tired to imply they were your own.

Thanks!

EDIT: The bold was so people could see my post was edited and so I wouldn't have to double post. Not for some other reason that you are implying.

[CBJ]

I haven’t been commenting on new UC for some time. I just read all those “bloody” and belligerent messages aimed at Discourse and some other people, companies. By the way Discourse isn’t Alex – it’s a community of people. And I am sure some of that people are even unfamiliar to UC’s members. Unfortunately all those messages could be summarized in one simple motto “UC is the best of the best– all other around are a pile of shit”. I was really surprised (especially by some old friends on UC), even shocked a little. But happily I saw new messages proposing to stop all that disgraceful very soon. Than I thought “Who-o, I guess it was bad weather and temporary insanity. I glad to see familiar features of old UC in new UC.”

Collector, I think you need to do a little more research on the whole Aether/UC problems. I could spend hours writing about all the stuff that has happened.. but I won't.

Aether has recent threads that are negative about UC.. and remain up. I don't think you'll find a thread dedicated to negativity for Aether.

Alex(aether) and I are trying to put things behind us, and move on... but he still hasn't reinstated my PM powers over at Aether.

Anyway, to leave because on occasion someone says something aimed at Aether... well I guess you'll be leaving both forums.. because they do the same thing.

CBJ

[Lotrek]

UPDATE

Well, it ts a bit off topic but the collective wisdom can still contribute...

I was very disappointed to find out that kickstarter hosts only projects from US or UK citizens...
This is not my case so I have to try an alternative way like indiegogo.com
Do you guys believe that I have any chance?