Why do cardists prefer Linoid finish Tally Ho decks?

Show us how good you are with your hands...
User avatar
EndersGame
Member
Member
Posts: 1450
Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2017 12:26 am
Cardist: Yes
Collector: Yes
Player: Yes
Magician: Yes
Has thanked: 521 times
Been thanked: 1181 times
Contact:

Why do cardists prefer Linoid finish Tally Ho decks?

Unread post by EndersGame »

I've heard it said that cardistry enthusiasts prefer the handling of Tally Ho decks with a Linoid finish above most other decks. Why is this?

I've done some research into USPCC produced decks - see my article here. As best as I can tell, USPCC only produces two types of finishes: smooth or embossed. Most decks use an embossed texture, which simply means the paper has dimples to help reduce the amount of friction on the cards for best handling. Sometimes this is referred to as an "air cushion".

In older decks, the texture and dimples of an embossed card were created at the end of the production process by the application of the card's coating using cloth rollers. Standardization in manufacturing and cost-cutting has resulted in the embossed texture being stamped into the paper itself with metal rollers, thus eliminating the cost of replacing cloth rollers (which also had a greater potential for causing problems, e.g. clogging). Many finish names still used today (e.g. linen, cambric, linoid) originated in the fabric used on these cloth rollers, and these names persist even though cloth rollers are no longer used, and nowadays the texture is created by pressing a metal roller with bumps into the paper before the printing process even happens.

As a result, all USPCC produced cards that are produced with an embossed rather than a smooth finish, actually have an identical embossing. There is actually no difference between a linen finish, cambric finish, or linoid finish - these terms are still associated with particular brands ("Air-Cushion finish" - Bicycle decks, "Linoid finish" - Tally Ho decks, "Cambric finish" = Bee decks), and that is why USPCC still uses these labels. But in fact they are identical.

1. The finish: Smooth or Embossed. Nearly all USPCC decks are Embossed, including Tally Ho decks.
2. The stock: Bicycle Stock or Bee Casino Stock. The Bee Casino Stock is thicker, stiffer, more durable, and needs some wearing in. Most of USPCC's mass produced decks used Bicycle stock, including (I think) the Tally Ho decks.
3. The coating: Magic Finish or Standard Finish. Orders of less than 15,000 decks all get the Magic Finish coating, which is more slippery and preferred by magicians, instead of the Standard Finish, which is only used for decks that are mass produced. I think that the Tally Ho decks use the Standard Finish, or it perhaps possible that they use the Magic Finish, and this is what makes them different?
4. The cut: Traditional or Modern. USPCC's default cut is the Modern cut, and while this can affect the ability to do faros, I don't think it is this difference that accounts for cardistry fans preference for Tally Ho decks. I suspect they have a Modern cut the same as most of USPCC's decks.

If this is correct, then most differences between USPCC decks must be more imagined than real. Most custom decks are Embossed and have the Magic finish, whereas the massed produced decks (e.g. Bicycle Riderbacks, Tally Hos) all are Embossed and have the Standard finish, and so actually they handle the same. Unless perhaps the Tally Ho decks don't use the same cardstock as Bicycle Riderbacks, or there is some other difference I'm not aware of?

If any of the information I have above is incorrect, I'd welcome correction, but what I have posted here is based on quite reliable and informed sources (see this thread for more information on this).
--
BoardGameGeek reviewer EndersGame => Playing Card Reviews <=>Magic Reviews <=> Board Game Reviews <=

Image
User avatar
MagikFingerz
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 7778
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2012 7:32 pm
Cardist: Yes
Collector: Yes
Player: Yes
Magician: Yes
White Whale: Sawdust and Delicious + uncuts
Location: Norway
Has thanked: 1763 times
Been thanked: 1508 times
Contact:

Re: Why do cardists prefer Linoid finish Tally Ho decks?

Unread post by MagikFingerz »

Well, first of all I would ask where you "heard" that statement, and how many confirmed it.

I can only theorize based on my own experience, but I think that that statement is an old one. More specifically, pre-USPCC factory move from Cincinatti, Ohio to Erlanger, Kentucky. First of all, most people seem to agree that Ohio decks feel superior than Erlanger decks, even today. I don't know whether they had more stocks and finishes than now, but I suspect they did. Tally Ho's certainly felt superior to Bikes, anyway. But I have no facts to back this up, so it may well be (at least partially) psychological. And there were also other reasons Tally Ho's were preferred, such as back designs more suitable for cardistry.

It's an interesting topic, though. Would love for others to chime in if they have relevant information. Just too bad there's so few cardists here nowadays.
- Tom

Check out my collection

My (abandoned and now severely outdated) Playing Card Wiki
User avatar
rousselle
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 4719
Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 11:35 pm
Collector: Yes
Player: Yes
Magician: Yes
Has thanked: 6957 times
Been thanked: 2405 times

Re: Why do cardists prefer Linoid finish Tally Ho decks?

Unread post by rousselle »

My understanding is the same as yours. In Cincinatti, they still printed Tallys with the "Linoid" rollers, still printed Bees with the Cambric rollers, and so on. That slight difference made a difference in feel that made some cardists and magicians favor the handling of Tallys over Bikes.

I think the card back design also played a part, as well.

I have not heard this preference repeated much after the company moved their facilities to Kentucky, and even then, it was only for a year or two (while Cinci decks were still available).

I'm sure more practiced Cardists like sinjin7 would be able to speak more directly to the point of view of the cardist, but this has always been my understanding.
This space intentionally left blank.
User avatar
sinjin7
Member
Member
Posts: 1485
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:17 pm
Cardist: Yes
Collector: Yes
Player: Yes
Decks Owned: 1500
Location: California
Has thanked: 755 times
Been thanked: 985 times

Re: Why do cardists prefer Linoid finish Tally Ho decks?

Unread post by sinjin7 »

I somehow missed this thread, but better late than never, right? The debate between Rider Back and Tally Ho decks is an old one. Here is my understanding:

When you talk about USPCC stock and finish, you really have to start with Ohio versus Kentucky. When the USPCC first moved to Kentucky, they really consolidated their paper stock options. They also sourced a different supplier for their paper from what they used in Ohio, and the quality really sucked at first but eventually improved. You basically had Bicycle stock and Bee stock, either smooth or embossed, and these were all from the same roll of paper, just compressed, or "crushed" to different thicknesses. You had two options for finish, which were Standard Air Cushion Finish or Magic Finish. Technically, the USPCC said there is difference in the chemical composition of the urethane and lacquer in both finishes, but they handle virtually identically. I mean, you have the skills of a Richard Turner to be able to tell if Magic is "slipperier" than Air Cushion. Since the USPCC moved to Kentucky, there is no difference in stock and finish between Tally Ho and Rider Back decks. The only difference (beside the obvious design differences) is the relative quantities of production between the two, and I'll talk more about that later. But for the purposes of Kentucky Rider Backs versus Kentucky Tally Ho's, they're pretty much the same. So on to Ohio.

I can't speak about the entire history of the USPCC while they were in Ohio, but I can talk about how things were at the time I really started to get into card collecting, which was around 2005. Back then, you had 4 basic stocks:
1) Bicycle stock - used for most mass-produced commercial decks like Rider Backs, Tallys, Arrco's, Aviator, etc...
2) Aristocrat stock - this was the economical casino-grade stock that smaller, budget-conscience casino's utilized.
3) Bee stock - the highest grade commercial stock used for Bee decks.
4) Casino-grade Bee stock - the premium, thickest, stiffest, most durable stock used by the major casinos (although many are now going towards plactic).
If you had the money and the need to print in enough quantity, the USPCC would work with you for your own specialized "boutique" stock. A couple of examples of this would be Ellusionist's proprietary UV500 stock, which was basically casino-grade Bee stock with inks that fluoresced, and the Old Studs made for Walgreens, which had a much softer stock (although Walgreens switched over to the standard Bicycle stock around 2006).

Thee was only one finish, but for marketing purposes you saw Air Cushion, Air Flow, UV500, Cambric, Linoid, Aluminum, Linen, Smooth, etc... Aside from the Smooth finish, all the other finishes were identical - the same dimpling pattern, same urethane, same lacquer, just different names.

So then are the Ohio Rider Backs and Tally Ho's the same as well? Yes. . .and No. Both decks have the same stock and the same finish. However, Rider Backs were mass produced in the millions each year in Ohio (as well as now in Kentucky). When you have print runs that large, you can only have a certain amount of quality control devoted to that scale of production, which results in Rider Backs falling within a spectrum of quality threshold standards known as Q1, Q2, Q3, and Q4. Part of that quality control entails how well the cards are cut, the uniformity of the application of the urethane/lacquer, and the detection of flaws in general (of course, print registration, color saturation, and centering are also controlled for, but these have less to do with how the decks feel and handle). Tally Ho's were printed at only a small fraction of the volume of Rider Backs, and the Tally Ho brand was afforded a much higher degree of quality control. Tally's were much more likely to be Q1, so the typical Tally Ho felt better and handled better than the typical Rider Back. Were there some Q1 Rider Backs that felt and handled just as well as a typical Tally Ho? Of course. Were there some Tally Ho lemons that snuck past quality control that felt and handled worse than a typical Rider Back? Of course. But in general, you were much more likely to have a Tally Ho that felt and handled better (however incrementally) than a Rider Back. I believe there is a degree of psychological influence that affects our preferences, but there are also tangible factors that support the difference in feel and performance between the two brands.

I'll finish with this: I had the fortune of knowing a USPCC retailer who had a close relationship with the management at the USPCC in Ohio, and he was able to obtain Tally Ho's that were verified as Q1 directly from the Ohio factory since he lived in Ohio. I bought several bricks of those Ohio made Q1 Tally's, and still have a couple bricks left today. If I hand you one of those Ohio Q1 Tally's and a current Kentucky Rider Back, you can say both decks are made from Bicycle stock and have the identical embossed finish, therefor conclude they have to be the same, but I will say without a doubt they are empirically different. Don't get me wrong, Rider Backs aren't chopped liver. But there is a quantifiable reason why many cardists prefer the handling of a Tally Ho over a Rider Back.
Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 15 guests